Dr. Katherine Giscombe | Diane Bell-McKoy
Dr. Marshaun R. Hymon | Karima Wilson
Enrico E. Manalo 0:00
Thanks so much for tuning in! This is The "DEI is:" Podcast, a show by DEI practitioners, for DEI practitioners, and the organizations that look for them. This season we're taking on what the DiVerity Consultant Network has identified as some of the most pressing issues in DEI in 2023. I'm your host as well as DiVerity's Community Engagement Lead, DEI and Conflict Management practitioner, Enrico E. Manalo. In our fifth episode of season two of The "DEI is:" Podcast, we're talking to Dr. Katherine Giscombe, founder of Giscombe & Associates, who also led the groundbreaking study on Women of Color in corporate management; Diane Bell-McKoy, president of Opportunity Connection, LLC.; Dr. Marshaun R. Hymon, Co-Founder and Managing Partner of True Change Alliance, LLC.; and Karima Wilson, founder of Forged Ed. Here's what Dr. Giscombe had to say:
Dr. Giscombe 0:47
My concern about these rulings is that there's this false narrative that there's no systemic inequity
Enrico 0:52
DEI is: Dealing with SCOTUS Rulings Pt. 2 - Early-Childhood through 12th Grade Education starts in three, two.
Enrico 1:12
So thank you all for joining us today. On June 29, and June 30 2023, the Supreme Court of the United States SCOTUS made a tree of rulings on affirmative action student loans and religion free speech and gay rights, which meant that moving forward race could not be used as a factor in admissions, student loan debt will not be forgiven. And that despite a state law prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation, well, you know, people, this this case, Elenis creative three versus creative 303 [303 Creative LLC v. Elenis]. Right. So they are not allowed to or rather free speech will take precedence over the rights of LGBTQ plus people. Sorry about that. So what does this all mean for DEI and social justice? In higher ed and a workplace moving forward? Or excuse me, actually, today, early-childhood education and 12th grade education. With me today to talk about that very thing are Dr. Katherine Giscombe, founder of Giscombe & Associates, who also led the groundbreaking study on Women of Color in corporate management; Diane Bell-McKoy, President of Opportunity Connection, LLC; Dr. Marshaun Hymon, Co-Founder and Managing Partner of True Change Alliance LLC; and Karima Wilson, founder of Forged Ed. And it appears I need to do more editing in my script before I go live with it. But here we are today anyway. If we could pivot to everybody, thank you very much for joining us today. I think I'll start with you, Dr. Giscombe, if you could just let us know very quickly about your connection to the topic that we're discussing today, that would be great.
Dr. Katherine Giscombe 2:46
Yeah, in addition to having done a lot of research on Women of Color, I'm very interested in what happens with Girls of Color. And I've also had a lot of really good opportunities in working with independent schools, which are more liberal than, say, the typical public K through 12 education. And I just have some thoughts about what public schools can learn from these independent schools in terms of just having greater emphasis on diversity, equity and inclusion.
Enrico 3:17
Great. And I think before the show, you also mentioned that you recently had a client where you're doing some research, or some work with K to 12 education?
Dr. Giscombe 3:26
Right. Yeah.
Enrico 3:28
Great, great. Diane, let's pivot to you.
Diane Bell-McKoy 3:32
Thanks. And so the interest for me is very much probably most of my career in terms of focusing on been in government and focus in the nonprofit world, and understanding that clearly the kind of social, economic impact in terms of not paying attention to this, what happens in terms of early childhood to 12th grade, in terms of not addressing those elements of systemic racism, in terms of making a difference, having been on the school board locally, obviously, in terms of part of that, but obviously, having been in government and education being a big part of that. And I will say even more recently, really understanding that if we're talking about the long term in terms of all those systems as country that is continuing from early childhood, and lots of work with early childhood funders around paying attention to this for the outcome, and the future economically for us as a country.
Enrico 4:24
And so you know, of course, I took the time to look at your your resume or your work experience as listed on LinkedIn. And I think if people were to look you up, Diane, they'd be very impressed by the titles you've held and the organizations that you've been a part of. So I wonder if you just might briefly mentioned some of those experiences so people have kind of that greater context?
Diane 4:47
Well, I'll begin with a name that many people obiously know across the country in terms of I started off in Marion Barry's administration in Washington DC in terms of so that my feet were grounded in that belief about the value and the importance of Black people and the economics of that. And so moving forward in terms of in terms of Kurt Schmoke's administration, and being a part of Kurt Schmoke as the first black mayor in Baltimore, being a part of lots of energy moving that agenda forward, including the Empowerment Zone working with Jim Ralph, I ran the Empowerment Zone and I'm proud to say the best in the country because we tracked our economic outcomes in terms of those investments. And it was community very much driven forward to moving all the way up to where I last worked for my own business started, in terms of Associated Black Charities, but was on probably four to 10 different boards about that, including school board, Greater Baltimore Committee, it's always been very entrenched, and community and making sure community, were a part of informing me in any space I've ever been in. Because I understand this is about community, and particularly for me, for Black people in terms of what their lives are like, so that I'm always gonna know what that mean—want to know what that means. And I think that's where I cut my teeth, to understand around the systemic challenges that continue to keep us—that you've got to have enough money, you can make changes, but you don't change the systems.
Enrico 6:12
So this topic is more than a passing interest for you, shall we say?
Diane 6:16
It's a passion!
Enrico 6:20
Dr. Hymon, let's pivot to you
Dr. Marshaun R. Hymon 6:22
Of course, hey, everybody, my name is Dr. Marshaun Hymon, um I am really excited about this topic and interested because I began my career as a public school music educator. And as an educator, generally, this is a passion of mine. But specifically, I know that music and an instrument talent has been an affirmative way to provide opportunity to students and entering college. So I am extremely interested in this. And I've moved forward in my career and now serve as a diversity consultant, working in organizations to help them change the hiring practices and change their their organizational practices. So those two coming together makes me extremely excited to talk to you all today.
Enrico 6:59
Thank you so much. Karima?
Karima Wilson 7:02
Yes, I'm excited to be here as well. So thanks for having me. And my background is from first as a teacher as well, I started off as a public school teacher here in Houston, Texas, and then became a principal. And since then I now work as a consultant with different schools. I'm at a school here today, and all around the country and we really work to help schools, educators build ecosystems where Students of Color can thrive. And so that's a little bit of my background.
Enrico 7:34
Thank you so much. And I love that you use that phrasing or that framing rather, of ecosystems, right. So, you know, people might not really understand the direct connection between the SCOTUS rulings and early-childhood through 12th grade education. But if we take that systems or more, aptly that ecosystem view, then we can start to see the interrelations of things right. So we probably remember from school, that graphic of the watercycle, or the food chain, or something like that. But you know, more than just those systems are interconnected with everything else. And so what we're trying to do today is shine some light on what some of those impacts may be, even if they may be somewhat indirect. So before we jump into that, I am going to pivot to our audience, right to just get some engagement going here. What's one thing you want the K to 12 (and sorry, Diane, I know it should be early childhood through 12th grade education, but there's a character limit) population to know about current DEI and social justice efforts as they eventually enter higher-education and the workforce? So if you've got thoughts on that, please let us know in the comments, but for now, we are going to pivot in to our questions. So what do the recent SCOTUS rulings mean, for early childhood to 12th grade education? As in part one of this discussion? Let's start by clearly articulating what affirmative action is and what it isn't. And Dr. Hymon, if you could start us off, that'd be great.
Dr. Hymon 9:08
Yeah, absolutely. I think this—it's never been are extremely, really clean definition, so I invite everyone else to jump in as well. But, um, Affirmative Action is the acknowledgement that inequality is in our society, and that has caused some groups to be excluded from opportunities, specifically women, and People of Color. So Affirmative Action is a positive, positive correction to ensure that all people have access to quality education and employment. What's really interesting is that the Supreme Court decision was not based on the idea that systemic issues exist in our country, but it was that the idea that all students benefit from a diverse classroom actually lacks evidence, at least that's what the Supreme Court said. So it's it's really interesting to kind of follow through on that there is data and evidence that shows that diversity doesn't matter but it has not been It's way too, to our Supreme Court justices. So I'd love to invite anybody else to, to add on or clarify.
Enrico 10:09
Yeah, I think one thing that we definitely want to emphasize for people is that the Supreme Court ruling is specifically for higher-education, it does not mean that there is no Affirmative Action or Equal Employment, you know, policies in place for the workplace. Right. So people are seeing that ruling and saying, "Oh, no more DEI," which is just not the case. Right. That's really jumping the shark here. So let's move back to that first part of the question like in general, what do we all think that the recent SCOTUS rulings mean, for early-childhood to 12th grade education, you know? Anybody can start here.
Karima 10:50
Well, I just wanted to jump in as well and say Affirmative Action isn't and hasn't ever been any sort of attempt are aligned with the vision of "reparations", right. And so I think oftentimes, there can be this idea that they're one and the same, or that Affirmative Action is a debt directly, specifically for Black Americans, but potentially for other groups as well, past policies and the impact of those policies. And there, there's always in the world of of the Supreme Court, sort of what matters is the way you're able to make the argument and then what the law says, right? So the way that affirmative action policies were brought about was to say that large universities would benefit from diversity, and so therefore could use race to, to help to determine who's part of any incoming class. And so now they're saying the way you've been using race isn't quite right, so stop using it in this way, so stop using it directly. But if a person wants to say, "Hey, I've experienced discrimination, because of my racial background," then it seems to say that schools can still use it in that way. And I think that's where it—we're not sure yet. What's going to happen at the K-12 [level] right?
Enrico 12:10
Yeah. So Karima if I can follow up here, because I do want to unpack for the audience, something that that you said just now, which was "Affirmative Action is not a form of reparations", right? So to those of us in the room, we have a firm grasp of what that means. But for somebody else who's like, you know, maybe that didn't even cross their mind, I wonder if you could just shine a little bit more light on that.
Karima 12:34
Yeah, I mean, I think if you understand the history of our country, then you understand that we have had large and historical, for many years harm done to different groups, specifically based on their race, right. So as a Black American, what that looked like for my ancestors would have been chattel slavery at one point, and then after that, it would have meant, you know, the Jim Crow policies, whether they differ from state to state, the inability to buy houses, in certain communities, inability to attend certain schools, etc, etc. So at some point, the US government could decide to make a policy that says, "we want to have mend the harm we did, or we want to pay financially or in some way, make change to say we acknowledge the harm that was done for this number of years in the past by doing X, Y, or Z." And there are examples of where the US government has paid reparations. I think that there were reparations given for Japanese Americans. And so there's not no policy basis or no basis in the in in our country for that. But we have yet to sort of have a political will to do it, in particular for Black Americans. And so Affirmative Action, while many people see it often as most as sort of symbolically repairing harm, it is not specifically intended to repair the harm.
Enrico 14:13
Right. So just to drill down on that, right, so Equal Employment—Equal Employment Opportunity, policy and things like that, that's dealing with the fact of diversity as it exists rather than the history of it or you know, anything in the past that—it just addresses right now, basically. So, let's see, in your view, now and this to everybody, what do the recent SCOTUS rulings mean for the future of the workplace, particularly if we're expanding the view to include early-childhood to 12th grade education?
Dr. Giscombe 14:51
Well, I think it means that the workplace will not be as diverse if, if, for example, there's this chilling effect that seems to have already happened, that it should not like different institutions should not take into account the racial backgrounds, the racial makeup of their, of their organizations. But I think more specifically about schools (and I think this also does relate to the workforce) it seems that this ruling is having a kind of chilling effect on what happens educationally in terms of do our educational organizations and schools going to recognize that Students of Color are often underserved. And we're going to make some attempts to correct for that, for example, by making sure that they hire enough diverse teachers so that students have some role models to look up to. And this is very different from again, I had the privilege of working with an independent school, who, for example, was headed by a person who was very liberal, and just open to the idea that racism is bad and it's going to affect the quality of education that students get unless there is some kind of action taken by a school districts or for people who run schools. So for example, there was a teacher in this independent school who wanted to proactively work on recruiting People of Color to become teachers for that school. And the Head of School was very excited about that and really endorsed the program. But I am afraid that in the K to 12 instances, that the people who run these school districts may take this as a signal may take the SCOTUS ruling as a signal that they don't have to recognize that there's inequity that's existed, and that, therefore, students, teachers don't need any additional resources are effort to make sure that Students of Color receive quality education.
Diane 16:55
I want to jump in on that to say I think it can also mean in my world that, because even before the decision, I think there's been a doubling down, and the public school system, at least in early-childhood, of understanding that the workforce of the future, in that preparation for that, that there are a can be well-paying jobs with a high school diploma and additional training. And there's a doubling down from a standpoint of businesses, a big component that out [unsteady signal, unintelligible] and talk about the future in terms of talent, and that coming—and that talent in many parts, including STEM are jobs that are available with persons with a high school diploma. Brookings [the Brookings Institution] in a study, I think it was 2013 and talks about as half of the STEM jobs are available for that population. But it also means a level of investment, all the way from (talking about ecosystems), all the way from getting from early-childhood, we've got enough data in this country, data [unclear], data research, and I love your research Dr. [Giscombe], but data tells us that this is possible that tells us what kind of investments will make a difference intellectually, emotionally, for people, for Black and Brown people. We know this, truthfully, we know the data. But what we're not doing is taking that data and investing to make the difference. It is about our future in terms of the workforce, you've got national organizations now that that are moving in that direction, employers that recognize who actually change, their decisions about jobs that used to require a college degree. And now they're willing to actually develop a component. There's one that got several that got developed here in the city I'm in [Baltimore] in terms of making that difference. And the data shows that what that does for the outcome in terms of income, long term, but also that this whole question of early-childhood to 12th grade, that we've also make sure to [have] conversation early about ecosystems, that we not just look at this in the silo of early-childhood, to 12th grade in terms of a public school system alone, that [unclear] the ecosystem around how children thrive and move, that really has to be all of that ecosystem that surrounds the system has to be engaged in this. And we've got to find a way to create those kinds of collaboratives, and moving that kind of agenda forward. And I know of examples where that's happening. I'm not saying it's happening broadly across the country. But we've got data to prove that this is possible to change those outcomes. So for me, in many ways, that decision means we need to double down in terms of investments and be innovative and be disruptive in those investments in terms of early-childhood-12th grade.
Dr. Hymon 19:45
You know, I like to add on to that; I love love that Diane, and I think K-12 educators will need to redefine what success means after school. So I love college. I'm a huge advocate of getting a college agree. And as to your point, Diane, is that the only measure of success? What about career? I mean, you mentioned like tech, like there—you can make a lot of money in tech without a four year degree. But the and that also—to expand that also means that employers then need to really invest in the idea that a four-year degree may not actually be necessary to be successful, and how do they redesign their job descriptions and what they're seeking to do that folks are entering their workplaces. So that means building talent partnerships with high schools to ensure that if you graduate with these skills, maybe another years or so of training, we got a job for you ready to go that's, that's high paying and you can also build a life with that.
Diane 20:41
I absolutely believe that, but I also want to say that doesn't take us away from also having to address the issues that are inside of school systems that really—that in terms of structural racism, you talked about earlier Dr. Hymon, in terms of (as well as you [unclear]) that educates in terms of making sure that we are dismantling we are educating, we are changing, looking inside of those systems, where we in fact, intentionally, which is those systems were designed to do that intentionally not benefit Black and Brown students. And so I can say, for Baltimore, there's a Dr. Tracey Durant, who is a DEI person for the—our school system, but she and her colleagues actually wrote a book in terms of around this whole issue of "humanity over comfort", but understand, they came up with a policy, the school board voted on, they used the community, community advocates, community participants to even come up with what those values and helping to find that, bringing that into the school system, [unclear] policy, so that they get to then move forward and whatever they do, including the teaching, training, with those policies in place, this is such a multi-pronged strategy (and I think of it as strategy) in terms—you think about early-childhood through 12th grade, how do we begin to move that including the ecosystem around schools?
Dr. Giscombe 22:03
I'm also really interested in what happens to Black girls, Girls of Color in the school system, because we know that there was actually a study done by the Columbia Law School on this variance in discipline and who gets disciplined in in K through 12. And the study found that Black girls were about six times more likely than white girls to be disciplined. And it was interesting, because we always hear about, you know, young Black men about what happens in schools and etc. And yet, Black boys were only three times—only—three times more likely to be disciplined than than white boys. And what this means is that they just don't, you know, when you're disciplined, it's almost like a "school to prison pipeline", that there's some correlation between who's been given this harsh discipline, who then doesn't get particular opportunities that the school should be providing, who's suddenly a target for the police because of what's happened within the school. So, you know, my concern about these rulings, generally, is that there's this false narrative, that there's no systemic inequity. So let's not really pay attention to say, the overage of Black girls being disciplined, "well, it just must be because they're acting up and they're not good, etc, etc." So it is really having, I'm afraid, a chilling effect on paying attention, as we've mentioned, to the importance of diversity, equity and inclusion across all strata of our society. It's really disturbing.
Enrico 23:42
It is very disturbing. And so, you know, we've mentioned from pretty much everybody—it's somebody's brought in data, right, to support what they're talking about. We're in a paradigm where, you know, Big Data is a focus, certainly in the tech world. And of course, that has impacts on business, right? But multiple people here today have said, "Hey, we have strong data that goes against this ruling", right? So, "if they had been looking at this data to inform their decisions, this would not be the decision that was made", and yet it was made. Right? Further, Dr. Giscombe, you just mentioned false narrative, right? So what do we make of this? Either we're in a data-informed paradigm, or we're not, how can we be in this paradigm of where some things are data informed, but conspicuously when it comes to Black and Brown people, we just don't have data, right? And I mean, it comes off as weak, weak-seeming, right? So if we're looking at that whole picture, then one could draw the conclusion that people are ignoring this data because it's simply inconvenient for them; because it's costly, it's time consuming or what have you. But I'm curious; thoughts on this point?
Dr. Giscombe 24:59
I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Diane 25:00
No, go ahead.
Dr. Giscombe 25:01
Well, unfortunately, politicians have been using this false narrative to ignore facts. I mean, I think that getting out of the school system issues, looking at Ron DeSantis, who's saying that there's benefits to slavery is just appalling. And unfortunately, people within school systems who may share a political background with someone like a DeSantis, or who may be unwilling to admit that there was systemic inequity is going to feel free to ignore the effects of systemic inequity, and not make any corrections to injustice, including what happens within the school settings.
Diane 25:43
I think it really is a travesty. I think you're absolutely right Dr. Giscombe. In terms of people using it, I think people simply using it for their personal benefit. It's really it's about power. And it's about money. I absolutely believe that in this country. I think I heard former President Obama recently on the show talking about this whole narrative now of different truths. We've been here before, in terms of about false [unclear]. And so you've created this is that "this is what my belief is, that's what I want to believe, and no amount of data is going to change that belief." And so I think that's a group that we're not going to win over necessarily, but I do think it's important to use data, which is why I love your work, to use data to actually inform and tie that data to the economics in this country. I'm absolutely clear if this is what drives this country, then tied to how it's gonna hurt you, as a business economic, how it's going to hurt the GDP in terms of this country, began to tie that, and also I think, is changes in terms of around what we do as Black, Brown people around our own power, and our own education in terms of about that data and being connected.
Enrico 26:56
Karima, would you like to jump in here?
Karima 26:58
Yeah, thanks. Um, I just wanted to point out that one of the things that was interesting about this ruling was even the Supreme Court's not being very data-minded. And just to say that, one of the things that happened in this case, Justice Clarence Thomas, was very adamant in saying that his personal individual experience of having received Affirmative Action, benefited from Affirmative Action, but having been emotionally scarred because other people sort of judged him as as an "Affirmative Action Baby" was enough to overturn centuries of you know, or years of sort of moving in this direction and understanding the purpose of Affirmative Action, right. And so his his personal feelings, his personal experience was used as a case of one, as opposed to understanding the data that shows that Affirmative Action, does benefit materially crossed the board, those who are able to gain from it, and it materially benefited him, whether he acknowledges it or not, he is at one of the highest—he's one of nine right in our country. And he was able to get there because of the doors that Affirmative—that those policies have been for him. And now he has made the decision to close those policies for others. And so our sort of lack—It's an interesting thing, because there's no, this isn't what normally SCOTUS does, right? Usually, there's going to be more of a sense of "what does the data say?" but in this case, it was able to say, you know, my personal experience trumps sort of any other data that might be out there, and I think that is really concerning. Because then it's just "who are those nine people on the bench? And what does their personal experience say about what has happened in the world and what the world could or should be?" And that's going to be where we're going. So just wanted to point out the lack of use of data in the actual court decision.
Enrico 29:11
Yeah, I think I'll just jump in very quickly, just to highlight something that that you said, Karima, so if we pivot from using a data set that is, you know, information from many, many people like data scientists, they prefer larger data sets, because you know, you can observe patterns across these larger groups of people. But if we pivot from doing that to a sample size of one, well, you know, if you've ever been to grad school, or you know, you've had to write a thesis or something, then the internal review board of your institution will not allow you to use that data because a data sample of one is not valid data. So I'm sorry, I—did I cut you off. Dr. Hymon?
Dr. Hymon 29:58
Oh, no, you didn't cut me off but I'd love love to just jump in. And so I think to answer the question, I don't know who said this, but there's a quote that I love. And it's, "you can't reason and data someone out of a corner that they do not reason and data themselves into." Alright, so I don't have an answer to this. But I think what's happening is, we all we all have our own ideologies and thoughts and opinions, and we're sticking to them. And I think we somehow need to come together to figure out "why do you think that? Why do you believe that? Where are you getting information from? How are you raised? And why?" And kind of come together to figure out what's the new narrative, we want to paint together to show that we all benefit. And that's very difficult, much easier said than done. But it's concerning, as you all mentioned, that the Supreme Court can make a decision based on personal feelings and anecdotes, rather than the data that showed, there is some—I'm not I'm not trying to avoid saying the worst systemic racism, but that people of color have not been [unclear] country (somehow, some way), that figure out what in the world is happening so we can do something about it.
Diane 31:03
I think it's also about, I would add that it is also about something we have not done a good job of necessarily in this lane, in terms around this in figuring out how to create coalitions, how to then develop data in a way that can be heard in terms of that, because I don't think—because I do think stories matter, that historic personal stories matter. I think when I think about somebody like AARP, that uses data, but has that huge machinery of being able to use stories and data to convince policymakers to go one direction versus another direction, I think it's about beginning to shift, what kind of tools we use, in terms of even using data to connect it to the emotions, because you're not going to shift people from an emotional space with just that. You've got to figure out how to use that emotional space, to take that data into that space. I'm not saying I know how to do it. I'm just saying that I think that that's a critical next step in coming up with some alliances with other people that may not be Black and Brown, in terms of that there. So that's why I'm a big proponent for finding allies in terms of shifting that.
Enrico 32:10
That's great. And I think one thing that I just want to emphasize at this point is Dr. Hymon, when you're talking about you know, "you can't data and reason somebody out of a corner", that's absolutely true. The way that I learned it was a little bit different, which is "you can't persuade somebody into doing something that they're not already open to". Right. And in fact, there is a psychological phenomena called "reactance". Right? So if you tell somebody to do something, and we've all observed this, you may have even observed it in yourself.
Dr. Giscombe 32:42
Yeah
Enrico 32:42
For example, think back to the last time your mother told you to do something. Was your first urge, "Yes, Mother, I'm going to do that." Or like, "I'm a grown up. You don't have to tell me what to do." Right? It was something like that. If it was that was reactance. Right. And so you can imagine if that's happening in a population of, I don't know, 330 plus million people, that might be a lot of reactance happening. Right. So I'd like to pivot now to our next question, right. As we've kind of alluded to and discussed, there are deep inequities in of course, higher education. But of course, those inequities, in fact, begin long before students even think of going to those institutions. So another recent SCOTUS ruling was against student loan forgiveness. And so my question to all of you is what impacts can we expect to see on early-childhood through 12th grade education other in addition to or exacerbate exacerbating, excuse me the existing inequities? And, you know, if if people are maybe unfamiliar with some of the inequities in early childhood through 12th grade education, perhaps we can also kind of pull the thread on that as well. Who would like to start?
Karima 34:02
I can jump in here.
Enrico 34:04
Great.
Karima 34:05
So I think also there was a Another recent study that came out since SCOTUS's decision that was just talking about who Affirmative Action actually benefits at the most elite college—or—also—I think it was mostly sorry, not Affirmative Action, "legacy", and it's—right? And one of the things that was pointed out was how much of a leg up both private school and sort of elite schooling in K through 12 provide for people as they're going to apply for college. And a big part of that might be that you get to have a higher test score, say SAT or ACT score, because you have more access to various preparation materials, etc, etc. But there was also something that people are calling essentially "private school polish", which is that private schools function wholly or, a big part of their function is simply to get their students into elite universities, right public and private. And so the inequities start in early childhood, right, the inequities start from the point at which some students live in communities that don't have access to resources, and there's intensity around, sort of the entire community is also underresourced. And so then what happens is those schools have a higher concentration of students with particular needs coming to the school, and then they're less likely to be able to meet those needs, right? When I was a principal, if you use the measure that the state uses, which is who qualifies for free and reduced lunch, we had over 95% of our students qualifying. And so what that often comes with is students who have trauma students who are behind students for whom the school functions, not just as a place for learning, but a social safety net. One of the things I did every year as a principal was take our fifth graders to a program to check to see if they needed glasses. I don't think that's the case for the average private school principal, that they're making sure that their fifth graders have classes. And that continues into high school with access to Advanced Placement (AP) courses, access to various types of whether it's Advanced Placement, or career and technical education courses that can put them on a path to show an admissions counselor, "hey, I'm ready to be a part of your school and this is what I would bring". And so there's not yet or there that comes to disadvantage, right. And therefore, often the need for Affirmative Action policies, but just wanted to point out that the inequities start very young, and they continue and the—they can multiply, right. So both have advantages, the advantages multiply, and those without, it becomes more and more of a barrier as they head off to to applying for college.
Enrico 37:11
Thank you for that. I think I'll just jump in very quickly to give a concrete example. So people who are not from New England and may not be aware of this, but within New England, where I'm originally from, it's very well known that the private schools Phillips, Exeter and Phillips Andover were actually established to be "feeder schools", respectively, for Harvard and Yale. Right. So the Bushes [the Bush family] they all went to Phillips Andover, because traditionally, they go to Yale, right? And they have for hundreds of years, right? So these are well-established, people that are in these circles, they know these things. But I think another thing that you're saying Karima, is that one of the impacts of lessening the prevalence of diversity is that we end up with hyper concentrations, both at the quote unquote, high-end and at the quote, unquote, low-end, right. And so if a lot of things like as an economics depends on things flowing, then you do not want hyper concentrations of things, right, you want flows so that things can move around.
Dr. Giscombe 37:15
But also, looking atthe inequity that exists among different types of schools, the fact that in the United States versus other countries, public schools are basically funded based on the property taxes, so those in wealthy areas simply have—and these areas tend to be more white is because of segregation and just the segregation that continues in spite of efforts to dismantle it. So basically, children from—children and teens in say, mostly "People of Color areas" mean there tends to be obviously less value of homes, less property tax. And I remember talking with a friend from Canada about this, and she was just appalled that the United States did this that well, you know, "we don't do that in Canada!" But that system is pretty well entrenched. So I don't think that there's a way to immediately dismantle it, but at least we need to be aware of it and try to make these efforts to give these children educational experiences that they may not at the outset, get in there poorly funded public schools.
Diane 39:26
I want to jump in there because I want to jump in and give a shout out to Maryland, in terms of just went through this enormous set—years—in terms of commission investigating in terms of what was needed to change the quality of education in the entire state, in terms of the millions of dollars that got approved. It was probably more than that, in terms of actually each school submitting districts submitting their plan, but includes early-childhood, that development goals include putting tutors in the classroom. It includes very concretely recognizing that resources to the very point, if Property Taxes are all we got to that, that's not enough in areas where you don't have the property tax. And I don't want to go off on a tangent, somewhere I read somewhere in Mississippi where the property tax is not even available, because much of that—oh, it was New Haven [Connecticut], much of that land is by—owned by Yale. And so that land was taken off of the property tax roll. So what does that mean for those schools. But going back around, I want to give another concrete example, around early-childhood through 12th grade, where you can actually do demonstrations, I think philanthropy has a role in the past of developing demonstration models. And being able to take that demonstration model where you actually can be changing some of those system issues by what the data you've gotten out of a particular program, and actually then begin to shift that entire school system, that entire school district, I think we've got to rely upon that other sector, that's now having a different type of consciousness for moving that forward. And in some states, across in some cities, where you do have land free playing that role. So it can demonstrate that if you've got these resources, this system, this structure, you can do it, it was called grant—Grants to Career and—and it was a multi-collaborative that put that in place. And they knew that kids were coming out of school, looking at that data, X percentage, were going to college X percent, we're going to work and this this group, they were just dropped off, they weren't counted in the workforce, they weren't going to college. And now they literally spent two years digging down and looking at the ratio, digging down and looking at what was going on in the school system, develop a collaborative of the workforce investment of community of the school system, and actually putting in place a wraparound services and support system and training, for those persons, young people coming out to move them into a job—well-paying job and move them into college, some percentage that but when that happened out of that model, it actually then the school system began to change in terms of—which has an equity framework—began to change how they would only have an office focused on college advancement, then began to have an office that wrapped up focus on career and understanding who that student was, that was not yet focused, and how to begin starting earlier to help move that focus forward. And so the system actually shifted inside of that the system shifted out of the Office of Employment Development, but that was funded by philanthropy initially, more than four years to prove that we can do something different. And the goal of that it's called Baltimore's Promise, is to change the systems and get funding from government to actually then shift how they approach the school system and early-childhood.
Enrico 42:48
So Diane, I want to follow up on that. And thank you so much for bringing all that into the conversation. Right? So we know that systems are big, but they're established by people, right? They didn't appear a whole cloth out of nowhere in our lives. Th—in your view, why is it that so many people have a hard time grappling with the concept of systemic change? You know, so they hear "systemic change" and then there's people that almost become disempowered. They're like, "oh, there's nothing we can do about it". Right? It's like, but we did it. That's why it exists.
Diane 43:25
I think it is, because it feels so big, it feels so overwhelming, which is why I applaud the effort. And there are lots of efforts across this country where people have taken that and actually developed a pilot or actually developed to move forward, or they've taken a leader and that particular leader, the very point is that, but taking a leader that had an affinity, in terms of wanting to do something different had an affinity to grow their own knowledge, I'll give you another concrete example. You do have to shift, you do have to educate that, the leadership for a local utility company, PG&E in terms of dynamically, they became and in terms of it actually changed the entire organization, both in terms of how it operated, having a DEI focus was critically, they will only focus on believing that they could get people ready to come into the workforce by investing in K through—early-childhood through 12. They were not willing to necessarily look at those workers or persons out there that only had a high school diploma and how to move them. They have literally, have changed the entire operation, that actually now shifted and have had ability to bring in people training, developing them, and then bring them in, coaching them and have a phenomenal change in terms of positive—they know they're going to age out. So that was an economic issue. But it was a value issue, because they knew they didn't shift what it was going to mean to the company. I think you have to do both. You have to start with people and help move them. That's why I think DEI is so important because until they're willing, if you've got deep down here, you're not going to make any of those systemic changes.
Enrico 45:06
Thank you. Oh, Karima?
Karima 45:08
Yeah, I just want to add in here, to Diane's point that one of the things, then that's really important for DEI practitioners to do is to help people build a systemic lens. Because I think another thing that happens is that systems, the systems that impact our lives are just hidden. On and on, right, I will quote a statistic that I'm not sure where I got it from. But even in the media, when we hear about cases of, say, systemic racism or other systems, we often hear one person.
Dr. Giscombe 45:42
Sorry [firetruck siren wails in the background]
Enrico 45:45
No worries
Karima 45:47
We often hear about one person's story as opposed to understanding the system. So say in education, something that is coming up is, or maybe I've heard the story of a student athlete who wasn't allowed to compete because of their hair. Right? And so I hear about that one student, the impact to them, and I see it as a personal story and what what, how negatively that impact, but I'm not seeing that, well, what are the systems involved, whatever state federation, the school systems, the policies around that, and so that one of our jobs as what—practitioners of DEI is to make sure that we help people understand that systems can work for us or can work, they can work to create the world as it is, or they can work to create a fairer, more just, more free world if we help to want to see them, and then to say, "what do we want this system to create for us?" Right? So the other thing is, I think there's a lot of mythology around the individual in our country. And so that reinforces that it's not about the systems, right? Justice Thomas spoke to that, right? It's not that each Black person has the same experience, right? But it's about what you individually can do and can bring to your school, as opposed to what, say, justice. I'm gonna forget her name. But she said is that we have—
Enrico 47:18
Ketanji Brown [Associate Justice Ketanji Onyika Brown Jackson]?
Diane 47:21
Brown?
Karima 47:21
Brown—she said that what we have to do is make sure that we understand the way systems continue to impact our lives. And so it's not that it's not that we're not individually responsible for our actions, but systems have been brought to bear on communities. And so how do we systemically then make policy that can help those communities that are experiencing that? So I think, important thing that we need to do is make sure that we're always incorporating that systemic lens into our work, so that people develop that as a muscle that they can use going forward.
Diane 47:55
I think you're all—I want to jump in on that—do you think it helps to also begin to show the picture? I don't think to the point is that people think of individually is that showing your earliest statement about the ecosystem, actually beginning to describe that to really show it on paper, in terms of connecting with what we know about systems is, when you punch it here, it moves there, but actually begin to help people—I think you're 1000 and one percent correct, about as DEI professionals, we do have to have that conversation and help people do it. And I think we've got to continue to find tools to help people understand it's not a straight conversation. It's not an easy thing to understand. But I think we do have to spend the time to lay out graphically, to then show it in their own lives, and turns on when you can show people those systems in their own lives, it changes our sense of what we're talking about.
Dr. Giscombe 48:46
It would also be great if we took some of those arguments to those politicians who think that there's no such thing as systemic inequity, that it's such a, I think, a very poor argument that they make, and if there are facts that they can be confronted with, in terms of what's happened in this country, because of Jim Crow, you know, overt discrimination against African Americans and other People of Color. Hopefully, that might shift SOME viewpoints. So unfortunately, they seem to be pretty stuck in this. There's no such thing as systemic inequities. It's almost like a "willed ignorance" on their part. I hate to sound so harsh about this, but I think it's gonna take a lot of effort to to move those—to move that mindset.
Enrico 49:36
Yeah, you can only fit so many elephants in a room and especially true if it's a very small room. Dr. Hymon, I think you wanted to get in there.
Dr. Hymon 49:44
Yeah, I um, I'd heard a lot of politicians express, "Yes, we acknowledge racism. Yes. We acknowledge slavery in the past. Yes, that happened. But today, let's just move forward." Right? That everyone has the opportunity and I think it's hard for also recognize that something happened for centuries, and then also espouse that actually it does not have an impact today, so that's very frustrating. And, you know, Karima and, Diane, I think you both talked about school funding. And what came to mind, as you were talking about that is, one other inequity I'd love to bring in is the access to extracurricular activities. And a lot of college admissions look for what they call "well-rounded students" who are in sports and activities and, and things like that. And if a school doesn't have funding of one of the first things they slice is the music classrooms or the the sports teams or things like that. So that's just another building inequity, where I have the grades, I have the scores, maybe I didn't have the sport, so the access to other activities, and I'm not showing as well rounded in the college admissions process. And that's, I think, inadequate, right? It's frustrating for some students. And Karima, you talked about a study earlier, and I actually just came across a study this morning that showed that the most advantaged people are those that are the Ultra Rich, right? That have all those advantages, and they get most admissions into colleges. And then what's interesting is the second most advantaged is QUALIFIED—Affirmative Action is not bringing in unqualified folks, right—but qualified people who are then low-income. Right? So for those really, really solid middle class students who are saying, "Oh, those black and brown folks are taking our spots" I mean, I don't want to put us against each other, but that's that's actually not happening. The folks that have taken the spots are the most advantage of the most rich in our country. So I think if all of us in the middle and lower class, work together to bring down systems that advantage, the most elite, we actually all—will all benefit. You know, that's what's on my mind.
Enrico 51:44
Sorry, I do want to pivot to our last question area, just so we're not missing out on this other SCOTUS ruling that was made. Right. So the other ruling that I have in mind is the ruling on religion, free speech, and LGBTQIA plus rights. Right. So essentially, it said that a web designer has a First Amendment right to refuse to create sites for same sex weddings, despite a state law prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation. And, of course, since this ruling, people have dug into this a little bit. And you know, I guess I'm still not 100% clear, but there are people who are saying this was based on a lie, on a falsehood. But in either case, right, I think one of the things that we have to acknowledge is that families don't necessarily look the way that many of us grew up expecting families to look, right? So there are many families out there with parents of the same sex or you know, it might be different living situation, but nonetheless, I think we can expect this particular ruling to have some impact on on people entering higher-education and the workforce in the future. So I'm curious if any of you all have thoughts around this particular ruling?
Karima 53:08
I'm not sure that I have a thought about that ruling. But I do think that one of the things that the combination of the different Supreme Court rulings are sort of signaling to the world and I think my sense that educators are are feeling very maybe "unmoored", or where's the grounding and where's this going to stop? Right? What what the Supreme Court is signaling is, "we're open for business", so to speak, "around, undoing what was considered the law of the land", right, or reinterpreting things that now have 50 or 60 years of saying, "This is what this means and this is how we understand", whether in this case, it's to this latest one, what you're saying the limits of free speech, right? And when us free speech come up against somebody's individual rights, right. And so what what then happens for in particular EC [early-childhood] through 12 educators, it's like, "is now part of my job to also be a Supreme Court expert, so that I don't run amuck of the law in my particular classroom?" Right. And we're seeing that, especially with the book bannings, which—that has yet, you know, been brought up to the Supreme Court, but sort of whose version of history are we teaching? Well, there's not multiple versions of history, as we alluded to, but what is being taught in our schools? And to what extent who gets to decide that, I think, is another big question that I don't know if or when or how, you know, it then might be ruled on by the Supreme Court. But to me, what this the sort of combination of rulings are saying is "we're open for shifting things that are seen as the law of the land for the last 50 years and who knows sort of where Who's gonna stop and when it's gonna stop." And I think the impact of that on educators Educational Administrators, is to sort of feel like they have another job on their already full plate of needing to know, you know, this whole other context instead of things to do the work that they're doing, which is just really unfair and unnecessary, because you're already busy enough, and they're doing some of the most important work that anyone can be doing right?
Enrico 55:26
Right. So to recap a little bit, we've got one segment of the population saying that systemic inequity does not exist, or perhaps it is not so harmful. And it's the same broad group of people who are saying, "now let's go change the system". Right. So it's beyond frustrating, I think. Other thoughts here?
Dr. Hymon 55:50
Yeah, I don't have concrete thought. But there are two connections that I'm making in my head or, two questions that I'm not asking myself. One is, "how does this impact the workplace?" If there's an employer who wants to discriminate against LGBTQ plus, do they not hire that person? Can they fire that person? By what? Where does this go? Because as a business owner, if I cannot serve that population, does that—only my services and my hiring my employment, so I'm just trying to figure out where that goes. And that's really scary. I think the second connection I'm making is, the Supreme Court said that, at least in this case, free speech is more important than the LGBTQ plus person's ability to access full citizenship in the world. And I'm a religious person, but but a couple of days—a couple of decades ago, the Mormon church wasn't clear about Black people. So like, we can a church now not serve different groups of people? You know, so it just it makes me fear for LGBTQ—LGBTQ plus people also fear for me as a Black person. Is it next for me in a certain institution? It just, I'm not sure where it's going.
Enrico 57:00
Right. So now that precedent has been set, what are people going to do with it, is kind of the question.
Diane 57:07
I want to add though on that point, and this is not concrete. So I'm pushing back a little bit. It's not a concrete statement. But I do think I look at those that lens, both that decision, all the decisions by the Supreme Court as an opportunity. And it was an opportunity in the sense of coalition, an opportunity in terms of various groups, in trying to figure out "how do we begin to push together? How do we begin to find the common agenda?" I have very pet peeve about figuring out how to shift even us as citizens and understanding what ou—not just our rights, but our responsibilities are in democracy, in terms of then pushing back. I don't see the pushback on this side of the world, in terms of understanding that we can do something that we can hold people accountable, that the elected official in terms of having community stats, so that you know how they voted, does that benefit you and not versus what they say when they go and [unclear]. I absolutely, absolutely think we are missing an opportunity to actually take those decisions, and develop a different kind of coalition to move this agenda forward, to move this country forward and push back against what's happening.
Dr. Giscombe 58:22
And actually just given my work at at Catalyst in terms of just women in the workplace, and minorities in the workplace, there is such a important role that could be played by the CEOs, because in the past, they have very strongly supported diversity, equity and inclusion. And I think that there is some fear that this ruling is going to affect what so-called Affirmative Action within companies can do, but there are, you know, very powerful, very wealthy CEOs who have very strongly supported diversity, equity and inclusion. And I'm kind of waiting for them to, to jump into this and, and to just give us a little bit more context on how important it is.
Enrico 59:08
So Dr. Giscombe, we're almost at time here. And I wonder if you've got any kind of final thoughts for folks or things that they can maybe take out of the box today and start doing to maybe start moving the ball more in the direction that we're, we're saying is necessary moving forward?
Dr. Giscombe 59:26
I think just the awareness that there is systemic inequity that exists, I mean, whether it's through education, whether it's through speaking engagements, whether it's through op-eds, but just kind of drilling down and trying to educate as many as we can in this country that systemic inequity is very powerful, and we can't just ignore it.
Enrico 59:51
Thank you, Diane. I'll pivot to you.
Diane 59:54
But I think my thing because we are talking about a DEI audience here as well, I think ee also as a part of this space can begin to figure out how we can come together in terms of benefit from each other's expertise in terms of different areas, in terms of moving this agenda forward, in terms of particularly pushing back.
Enrico 1:00:14
Thank you. And Dr. Hymon?
Dr. Hymon 1:00:17
Yes, not to give up the fight on systemic issues, but two practical recommendations; If you are a quick K-12, educator, let's redefine post-secondary success and help students see that there's a variety of different ways to be successful. And if you're an employer, remove the degree requirement, let's actually look at skills as the primary determinant of success, rather than a degree. I would group that.
Enrico 1:00:42
And I think I'll leave the last word to you Karima.
Karima 1:00:46
Um, yeah, I just want to acknowledge that, you know, the four of us come from and share a background as Black Americans. And a big part of this work is also building coalition across lines of difference, right? And so are the four presenters, and so it's important that we're understanding who's in the room always and who's not in the room? And how do we make sure to hear from who's not in the room? That's one way to start just "are we coalition building" to Diane's point, "as many ways as we can be, but also stay hopeful find find ways to be hopeful about how we can make change".
Enrico 1:01:20
Great, thank you. Yeah. And I think it's worth remembering, too, that this is a reaction to some of the progress that has been made in the past several years. So if there's people out there feeling discouraged, or hopeless, I completely understand but now is not the time to lose hope or to lose energy. In fact, now is the time to step it up to figure out who we can connect with, as Diane and others have been saying. And of course, if you're not sure where to turn for community, well, then of course, you can check out DiVerity.com, in fact, that's how I met all of these lovely people right here. It's a great community, a lot of very intelligent, incredibly well-intentioned people and I think there's great potential for change there. So once again, don't lose hope. This is Enrico E. Manalo for The "DEI is: Podcast". Sorry for flubbing my lines earlier everybody I apologize, but we'll have the chance to do it all again next time so can't wait to see you all then. Till then. I hope you'll all be well. Bye!
Enrico 1:01:25
Enrico here thanks so much for tuning in to The "DEI is:" Podcast. If you're walking away from this episode, feeling like you've learned something, saw something from another angle, or if you just enjoyed it and give us a like, share it with your friends and please subscribe. Building a diverse equitable and inclusive organization is hard, but finding DEI expertise and services shouldn't be; if you're looking find us at DiVerity.com That's d-i-v-e-r-i-t-y.com. Till next time, this is Enrico E. Manalo. See you soon!
DEI is: Dealing w/ SCOTUS Rulings Pt. 2 - Early-Childhood through 12th Grade Education