Enrico E. Manalo 0:00
Thanks so much for tuning in! This is The "DEI is:" Podcast a show by DEI practitioners for DEI practitioners and the organizations that look for them. This season we're taking on what the DiVerity Consultant Network has identified as some of the most pressing issues in DEI in 2023.
Enrico E. Manalo 0:16
I'm your host as well as DiVerity's Community Engagement Lead, DEI and Conflict Management practitioner, Enrico E. Manalo. In our third episode of season two of The "DEI is:" Podcast we're talking to Dr. Nadejda I. Webb, Clarissa Fuselier, founder of Inclusion.Logic, and Jess MacFarlane of Jess MacFarlane Consulting about a crucial issue in DEI: naming whiteness in white spaces. Not sure what that means? Think about it this way. If you go to the doctor and refuse to tell them what your issue is, because it's uncomfortable to talk about, can the doctor actually help you with your issue? Even if the doctor does what they can in that situation, would you want to pay them knowing that they didn't resolve the issue? Now replace "doctor" with "DEI professional" and that's the situation we're in. Here's what Dr. Webb had to say:
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 1:08
"We function in a space that is structured by white supremacy. And if we're not willing to name this and to call it out, we are complicit in the violence faced by workers."
Enrico E. Manalo 1:19
DEI is: Naming Whiteness in White Spaces with Dr. Nadejda I. Webb, Clarissa Fuselier, and Jess MacFarlane starts in three, two,
Enrico E. Manalo 1:41
Embracing discomfort is something DEI practitioners often advocate but what does that really look like in practice? Sometimes it looks like managing our own emotions. And other times it looks like calling something what it is. Often that thing is called racism. As many of us in the diversity consultant network, our independent people and culture practitioners and more specifically DEI professionals, it's expected at least on paper that we will call out whiteness and racism when we see it. That said as independent practitioners external to the organizations we provide services to we often have to navigate the line between speaking truth to power and making sure that we get paid. So how do we name whiteness and white spaces and make sure that we're successful here today to talk about that very thing, are Dr. Nadejda I. Webb, Clarissa "Clo" Fusilier, and Jess MacFarlane. How are you all doing?
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 2:39
Pretty good. Thank you.
Enrico E. Manalo 2:41
Well, thank you so much for joining us. I think first before we jump into our questions, we are going to pivot to the audience. So the first one for all y'all today is where do you expect to run into whiteness? Right. So I'll leave that up as we're getting started here. But to our panelists. You know, I think last month many people were aware that Uber's Chief Diversity Officer Bo Young Lee was in the news regarding a pair of events, one in April and one in May billed as "diving into the spectrum of the American white woman's experience", titled "Don't call me Karen". Reportedly, workers at Uber felt like they were being lectured on difficulties experienced by white women, specifically harms caused by the use of the term "Karen" which usually refers to strongly entitled, middle aged white women and that the events worked to minimize racism and the harms that white people can inflict on BIPOC. I'd like to get your take on that story. But to position us to do that, perhaps we can first get a definition of "whiteness"?
Clarissa Fuselier 3:46
Yeah, so I would say let's kind of level set when we're having the context of this discussion of what we mean by whiteness, right? It could be misconstrued in so many different ways. But what I tell people is that whiteness is not a race, it's not an ethnicity, it is a category. It is a way to define who is allowed privilege, who's allowed resources, who's allowed the benefit of the doubt. And that is rampant throughout our entire society, because anti-Blackness, like whiteness runs on anti-Blackness, it supercharged and fuels it right. And so when we talk about whiteness, anyone can perpetuate whiteness, they can be an agent of whiteness, they can be in a proximity to whiteness, but it is one of those things that we would say that in our society, it is very well known that whiteness is the default it is the thing that if we don't even think about its value, when we think about American we kind of think white everything else has a hyphen, you know before it so that's what I was saying, you know, in a nutshell that whiteness is a category. It is a culture of things around privilege and oppression and who gets what.
Enrico E. Manalo 5:10
Thank you for that. Yeah. So if we're pivoting more to the situation that happened at Uber, I mean, anybody got any thoughts on that?
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 5:20
I mean, I think we have to interrogate their choice to center that narrative for their workers, right, because that's what was happening. They chose to have a talk. And that's what they chose to interrogate. And the question, again, is, why would you choose to interrogate this specific thing, as opposed to the experiences perhaps of like, the vas—the I'm not sure about the workforce—I mean, I'm making an assumption that it's probably majority white and so why wouldn't you choose to—at least a corporate workforce—why wouldn't you choose to interrogate experiences of the non-majority, to bring sort of like a different experience to highlight something more? I think, our our collective imagination, we can tell you—I am not a white woman—I can tell you about the experiences of white women. They're, they're mediated, they're everywhere. So it's, I think that's a fruitful starting point. Well, why would we make this specific decision? And what were we aiming to do? What were we able to—what sort of experience are we aiming to facilitate for the folks in the audience? And I'm not entirely sure, given the pushback that they thought about the experiences that like the experience that they were facilitating. And that may be, you know, the core of the issue, right, because whiteness, also—a part of that is what we consider—what would be the traditional. And so was that traditional within that workplace? And did they just make a choice that falls within that category category, as opposed to interrogating it and saying, "Well, perhaps even though this is something that we would have traditionally done, or we have done in the past, given this specific moment, given, you know, Black Lives Matter, given all of the things that have happened within the last few years, we actually—have to do something different". And why did they choose to do something different?
Enrico E. Manalo 7:00
Good points. I mean, Jess, you do a lot of work around white allyship, is that correct?
Jess MacFarlane 7:08
Yes.
Enrico E. Manalo 7:09
So I'd just be curious to get your perspective here.
Jess MacFarlane 7:12
Yeah, thanks for that. And I would say, in deciding kind of where I want to go from here, but what I'm thinking about is, I don't know a lot of details about what was contained in the Uber session, and especially kind of where this fell in their journey around equity work internally, right. But I'm thinking about, there can be useful conversations, in cohorts of white people led by a white facilitator, or a facilitator of any race, to be honest, focused on kind of how whiteness shows up within us and what gets in the way. So that can be fruitful work. I, if I were doing that, I don't think that I would call it "Don't Call Me Karen", I don't know that that's a really kind of like helpful way to enter the conversation. Because in my experience, that kind of title is going to kick up defensiveness immediately. So folks are going to come into the room with kind of preconceived ideas with worries about how they're going to be perceived, or that they're going to be called Karen and things like that. Right. So, again, I don't know the details there. But I just I do want to name that I think it can be helpful in our unlearning of whiteness to really talk about how does whiteness show up for us as white people, because so many of us don't even see it, right? We are all we've lived it and breathed it so long that we're not aware until someone kind of presents it to us like a mirror. There can be fruitful space for that.
Enrico E. Manalo 8:42
And that's a great segue. So our follow up question here is, as DEI professionals, why is it important to name whiteness in white spaces, especially when people are paying for our services?
Clarissa Fuselier 8:58
So I can, I can kind of kickstart that. So I, I predominately feel that for us in this space. There is a firm line of integrity that we must hold and our duty and I actually have it on my website because I don't want any of my potential clients or anyone to get it twisted up how I approach my work. But my thing is I tell them is, I—you may sign my check, but I don't work for you. I work for your employees. I'm here to service them. And that is what you're hiring me for. And then I also say, if I'm going to tell it like it is if you have a white supremacy problem, I'm going to name it. If you have a lack of resources, I'm going to call it out. I feel like those are the things that like we we are in this capitalist society that forces us to use this thing of like "we have to get paid" and that's true, we have bills to pay, but I also want to be able to look at myself in the mirror every morning and say, am—as a DEI practitioner, my duty is a people oriented social justice work, my duty is to helping the communities that are marginalized. And if my work is not doing that, if I'm not accurately calling that out, calling out whiteness when I see it, and how to, you know, mitigate and dismantle that, then what am I doing besides picking up a check, and then I'm just part of the problem.
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 10:35
Thank you for that, Clo. I think that gets us to what it means to make change what it means to be a change maker. And I think that also gets us to thinking about like, DEI as a corporate practice, or even the name, you know, "DEI", that it has been pulled into, like, "actually, as a corporation, we'll bring a practitioner in and that in itself is a change". It's like, actually, is that the change? And if we don't name something, how can we actually unpack it? How can we actually say, well, actually—this is the problem, there is a problem, we have to be able to very clearly and specifically name, what's happening to get to the root. So you know, to capture exper—not capture, I don't use that word, but to name the experiences, as you said, of employees, you know, to get to their experiences, what are the things that they are facing day to day in this work environment? So it—I think, in order to meet change, it is critically necessary to not even just, it's, you know, we're talking about speaking truths about we started with that. But it's critically necessary not just to name it, but to get specific, to be thorough, and yes, to engage with experienci—the experiences of employees, because they're the ones who have to stay in this work environment after we leave. So what is the purpose of the work? If it's something about that doesn't shift, or if we don't plant a seed that can then be watered to produce further change and I think that's another aspect of this, right? You can't—change is a long term thing. I think sometimes folks bring in a practitioner, and they think, "hey, the practitioners here, we're gonna have these sessions and, bam!" Actually, that's not the way that works! You're looking at a long term project, a long term journey to figuring out, you know, to really sussing out what is framing the violence that's here. And I think that's the other thing about naming whiteness, we're naming violence. And it's something that, you know, sometimes kills people, it shows up in bodies, right? And it's like, well, how do we again, how do we resolve something? How do we start that journey? How do we get to the root, if we're not willing to name. In the naming is, in some ways a confrontation with the problem. And that's the power in the naming, right? There's power in language. And I think that's the power that's there. And that is something that we're tapping into when we're willing to do that work, or start doing the work. Because, again, it's a beginning, it's a journey.
Jess MacFarlane 12:53
Yeah. And I love that you're bringing up Dr. Webb the idea of, you know, organizations getting a consultant to come in, and they can often be very focused on the deliverables, like, "Okay, we're going to do this assessment, we're going to do these workshops," you know, and, for me, whiteness really shows up in like the "in between" just how do they, you know, treat each other over email, or kind of who's, who's seen as the norm within the organization. And I'm thinking about a client that I had, I'm gonna be vague, but they're basically a community wellness organization, so small staff, but they had a lot of folks who come and use the space. And so we did an assessment of sort of the experience of folks who come into the space and why they're attending or not attending. And this organization had kind of done all the right things, right. They had affinity spaces for folks based on race and sexual identity and age. And they brought on a consultant and they tried to diversify the folks who are leading the classes, and, you know, there are all these boxes that you could check. And yet, there was like tension within the community, right? Or people were, they were having trouble with retention of people with different racial backgrounds, sexual identity, gender identity. And so through the assessment process, that was really what it came down to, is a really big finding. You can do all these other things that are like check the box, you know, increase diversity in your marketing or, you know, make the space more physically accessible, things like that. But just the stories that we heard was this undertone of sort of who is seen as normal, quote, unquote, who is seen as the folks who belong in the space and who's not, right? So everyday experiences of microaggressions that community members were experiencing, or just these other kind of less like big ticket items, that it was just sort of the culture that you could feel within the organization. And so that was something that we had to reflect back to them and I think It was difficult for the leadership who were predominantly white to take it in. Because for them, that's just—"that's like our every day of how we operate, you know, not really recognizing, like, if we're not directly experiencing microaggressions, we don't know that, you know, those harms are happening necessarily". So, yeah, I'm trying to think of like a useful metaphor around it. But I just, there's the, you know, the tasks, like the clients can be very focused on the tasks that you want to get done. But you have to really talk about like, "what's the air? What's the culture? What's the energy of how things are happening within the space?"
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 15:36
Can I add one more thing?
Enrico E. Manalo 15:37
Yeah, jump in!
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 15:38
I think, I think, to your point, I think that's the naming white supremacy and naming the fact that we live in the wake of slavery, and the aftermath of slavery, right, a both end. And when we are able to say actually, these things construct our society, and they construct the interactions that we're having. Right, then I think it brings a like, a necessary confrontation, but also a necessary, like a new layer. And I say new, because that's something that I think a lot of folks want to postpone or push back, put it somewhere else. It's not in the present. It's in the past, even though impregnates the present, this is what we're facing right now. And how do we have a conversation if we don't want to name those things? If we don't want to say "white supremacy"? And if we don't want to say "actually, how are these small things then tied back to this major structure that is here? It's very much in the room. It's the, it's your neighbor, it's right next to you.
Jess MacFarlane 16:31
That's right.
Enrico E. Manalo 16:32
Yeah, absolutely. And to your point, Dr. Webb, you know, like, you mentioned slavery, that was partly an issue of framing people as products, right? And that's often what happens to DEI practitioners, right? So "oh, you're a change agent. What I'm buying from you is change, I'd better be able to take it out of the box, and open it up, follow the instructions, and it should be done, like a TV dinner. And if it's not, you're bad at what you do." You know, so it's like kind of a damned if you do damned if you don't kind of kind of dance and if we can't again, acknowledge what's wrong, then are we ever going to really get to dealing with it? You got a couple of comments rolling in here. Abbiola Ballah, who some of you will remember from last month, hey, Abbiola. Abbiola says "whiteness shows up in all aspects of our lives, in my opinion, from perfectionist tendencies in our work to how we code switch in certain spaces to seem more "professional", to our education system, and just how we show up in our daily lives." Necessary, right? Let's see, we got something in from Anderson, "Acknowledging whiteness as an output culture today from a history of colonialism and slavery that reflects in a difficulty to embrace our full identities is a key point to move forward from diversity friction to real inclusion acts, may I ask the panelists to share best practices to create safe spaces and conflict resolutions for peace?" Big question, who'd like to dive in?
Jess MacFarlane 18:16
I have a thought right off the bat, just just one idea that's been useful for some of my clients is giving a framework for how we enter conversations. So two examples is having some like community agreements, or kind of guidelines for how we're going to be in conversation with one another. So that could be things like, you know, listen, to understand not to respond, because we can kind of be on the edge of our seats to wanting to respond to what other people are saying. And rather being in a position of let me take in what they have to say before just focusing on responding. Another one can be accepting that everyone's in a different place with our understanding of the content. And that's okay. You know, we don't need to judge people for where they are. And we can recognize that people are at a different place. And we're coming together around doing this work. So that can be helpful. We can also get really specific, there's a wonderful facilitator I've worked with who offers a nonviolent communication framework to her clients. And so saying, you know, this is how we're going to name the issues that we're experiencing. And so nonviolent communication includes kind of your observation of what's happening, how you feel about it, what does it mean that you have, and then what's a request. And so when we have given that framework to clients, it can be really helpful to get clear on like, this is how this is impacting me, and this is what I need from you. And it just kind of gives everyone a supportive way to engage in conversation with each other because, you know, as adults, many of us haven't been taught how to navigate conflict effectively. And so having kind of guidelines can be helpful.
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 19:56
I think for me, I would ask the question, "safe space for whom?" I resist giving like a full—I resist giving like a full—a suggestion or like a complete answer, because I think so much of this also apart from safe space for whom, some of this also depends on how this workplace functions in its specific iteration of the thing. You know, what, what are the specific issues that are happening within this workplace? Because there are particular tensions that shape, right the communication styles, articular people, events that we may not be cognizant of when folks say, "Well, we really want like, a peaceful, a peaceful," like some sort of peaceful communication strategy. Well, you know, why why is there no peace to begin with? Was there some sort of pre emptive action that was taken? Or, you know, is there some violence that has already taken place that the employees are fully aware of, or, you know, that has that like one employee, it says, happened to me, I'm a witness to it something like this and that is the thing that's also there? So I think this is really, this is specific to each this is specific to the workplace, the work environment, the specific relationships that are there, the things that have happened, I really think this is this is context specific, I think is what I'm saying.
Clarissa Fuselier 21:14
I agree. And I agree with everyone on the panel about the need to win, I want to I am actually trying to facilitate a space and I don't call them safe spaces, I call them brave spaces. Because if we're going to, we're going to do real talk and to justice. And Dr. Webb's point, not all of us really know how to deal with conflict resolution very well, that's the problem in corporate right now is that everyone is very conflict averse, everything that we can try to avoid confrontation, we're going to do it and what's more confrontational than talking about whiteness, and white spaces, right? People are going to try to avoid that at all costs. And what they're going to wouldn't be tempted to do is what happened at Uber and try to shift the comfort to whiteness, because we don't want their feelings to get hurt. We don't want anybody to be upset. And that is where we come in to make sure like you, you know, like Dr. Webb said, space safe space for who? Who are we trying to make this space safe for? We're trying to do it for everyone? And then also, when we're creating these community agreements, are we doing it as a group like this work is people oriented, I can't say it enough. Everything that we've learned, even with Jess had mentioned in the in her story is that you can't find these things by doing the, you know, standardized assessments and things like that. Maybe you could. But this is a culture whiteness is a culture and a category. So when you're talking to people, when you're having focus groups, when you're meeting with people in the office, when you're talking about them with like, how they feel what's going on, looking around at the culture of things and seeing how people interact with one another. That is how you spot that stuff. That is how you build community by listening to the people. And when this, this whole situation came up, the first thing that popped in my head really was. So Lily Zheng, had wrote an article back in December talking about the DEI Industrial Complex. And this, it just rang pretty true of, we will we will get into a space if we're not careful, especially for DEI practitioners, to just go and just do the status quo, we're starting to do the same thing that we've been brought in to prevent. So you have to always check yourself on that and like, why am I here? Why am I getting this check for? It's supposed to be to make sure that this workplace is being fair and equitable to the people who do the employees there? So am I making this space safe for them? Because we know that they're the ones who have often marginalized? Is it safe for them? Can I hear from them? Because my first question what the whole thing kind of fell apart with Uber is like, did she talk to the people? Like I feel like that was a big miss, right? Because if you're not doing this people centered work by talking to the people, then you're subjecting yourself to the DEI Industrial Complex.
Enrico E. Manalo 24:34
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. So you are right. And everyone, not many people do have a background in conflict resolution. I happen to and that's how I know that there's not that many people out there with it. But what I can say is within the conflict field, we talk about safe spaces. Yes, but we talk more about brave spaces, that is spaces that are safe enough because people have a tendency to not really recognize what is safe versus what is comfortable. And so when they're comfortable, they feel like they're safe, right? But you can be safe and uncomfortable. And that's the space that we really want to enter to into, because that's where it change tends to tends to happen. And Anderson, I'm really glad that you use the word peace here. So part of my view is that peace is something that is an active process. It is not a ceasefire, it is not a chill and communications, it is something that people are proactively working for collectively for our mutual benefit. Right. The other thing to keep in mind is to do that, we're right, we have to keep people at the center of that. And we can do that by leading with curiosity. People sometimes hear me say that and think that I mean, to lead with questions with questions or questioning. But that can also be a form of attack, right? So if you are asking earnest questions, and you're really actually curious about why somebody thinks some way or why they are behaving in a certain way, well, humans are great at picking up on one another's mental states. And that will come through right that curiosity is not you trying to find some way to get something over on someone, people are really sensitive to that, right. So if you're centering people, if you're keeping them safe, not necessarily comfortable, you're leading with curiosity, and you are leveraging any kind of relationship that you have relationships are really important to conflict resolution, because if you don't have a relationship, why even bother engaging with conflict to begin with? You know, it just takes away from you. That's not productive conflict. That's destructive conflict. So thank you all for allowing us to spend a little time on that. We do have another question that I would love to get to. It's from another member of the DiVerity Consultant Network. Xin-Yi's chiming in here, hello Xin-Yi, she's saying "happy to make it to share space with accomplices slash comrades slash folks today. I would like to seek advice. How do people from marginalized communities in this work take care of themselves, especially in predominantly white spaces that are hostile and microaggressive?"
Clarissa Fuselier 27:24
Anybody want to start? Alright, I'll take it in their bios comes up in this is a really great question. And I think I see another individual that had a question pretty similar to this too. And this is important, right? We are taking on a lot of emotional labor when we do this work, I hear things I talk about things that, you know, it used to be a point where I would do work for some of my clients and like, after that, I wouldn't be able to eat the rest of the day and I wouldn't know what that was from. And it was because I was just emotionally spent, I was emotionally drained. And my body was just like, you can't do anything right now. But like, go to sleep, and like try to recharge. So mental health for us is super important. In fact, it is a lot of reason why so many DEI practitioners in-house and out are burnt out. One is because like we know, this is an uphill battle. So you that stamina, you're not having that seminar having to continue to generate that stamina can get very tiresome for all of us. And we get we get tired and if you know, we're not seeing change that can frustrate us. And then also just dealing with the trauma like all of us, especially those we're doing this work that are from marginalized communities, or still have trauma that we're working on ourselves, right. And so, like I tell all of the practitioners and I talk to you and work with is that you have to take care of yourself first, put your own mask on first, and make sure that you are practicing self—self-care. And so things like self care, like I tell people, it's not always taking bubble baths and getting your nails done. Right. But things like that is, you know, if you need to journal to process some of the things that you've had to take in do that. If you have access to a therapist or a life coach, do that. If there's lots of communities that are starting to sprout up in the DEI space that are being like little havens in you know, little small spaces that where we can be ourselves and kind of like release and also find ways to connect and share something healthy with ourselves and have a space. Lisa Hurley and Elizabeth Leiba had just released a space for you specifically black women called the Great Exhale. There is Crystle Johnson, who calls herself the DEI coach, she does different retreats. So my advice is like one of the things you want to do is try to find a community that you know, where you can be yourself, where you can kind of distress, find some things to take care of yourself first, because you can't do this work. If you're burnt out. You just can't.
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 30:29
I think I would also add, and thank you for those suggestions. I think those are awesome. And I think you're right, I think my other suggestion would be that you have to monitor your commitments, you have to monitor the organizations that you choose to work with. Because to your point about emotional labor, right, if that organization is not there, either funding, or you know, a variety of other factors, they're not equipped to do the work that they say they're doing, but you are doing the work, you know, you're going to be doing the heavy lifting. Indeed, you are here to facilitate a process to see the journey, sometimes to support someone or support the organization in a specific, you know, specific leg of the journey, depending on on what you're being brought on to do. What are you here to do all of the heavy lifting? You are not,
Clarissa Fuselier 31:15
Yeah.
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 31:15
and especially when you're from a marginalized community, and you do have your own commitments, right? Like I have this commitment, I would like to make change, I want to see it, I want it to be effective. But if I'm working with an organization who does not have the same level of commitment,
Clarissa Fuselier 31:31
yeah,
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 31:32
that is a dangerous space for me. You know, just being aware of the commitments and, you know, just monitoring this being cognizant is also can be either the frontline of defense or an additional line of defense that can be useful.
Clarissa Fuselier 31:47
That's perfect, sorry, just just one thing before I lose my thought, is that, that is the part that I saw someone that said that a lot of times were brought in not to really do real change, but to for optics, and that you pointed out hit the nail right on the head, Dr. Webb about that, is that if you are not in house, you know, if you're a consultant, like you need to vet your client, you need to vet your process your prospects, and for me, like, yeah, I need a paycheck. But once again, that nuanced that we're in, in this society, I need to be able to look at myself in the mirror every day. And I'm not going to like waste my time with a client who just wants to use me for optics, that's not my thing. And so, you know, get to your point where you can vet your clients and find out really like the "why". I always ask any prospect that reached out to me, why are you reaching out to me today? Why do you feel that you need to engage a DEI consultant, and I will dig in, until I find out like the meat of what they're really looking for. And sometimes they're just looking for someone to do like a couple of workshops for them like, no, I'm sorry, I am not the one for that, like, I will do assessments, and I need to do, I can't just throw some kind of standard, out of the package box for you to, you know, with thumbs up for, and that's the thing that does mess with our mental health is working with clients that are toxic, and feeling like we have to get that paycheck to do that, like at what cost?
Jess MacFarlane 33:16
Yeah. And I was just gonna add, I don't have recommendations for speaking directly to BIPOC. Folks, thank you both for sharing what you shared, I'm thinking about the white folks within institutions who have the power to create conditions with institutions, or maybe they're hiring consultants. So having heard what Clo and Dr. Webb shared, and thinking about if you're part of that hiring for a consultant, increase the budget, right pay practitioner—Black and brown practitioners more, so they can potentially, you know, have fewer clients and have more space and rest so that they can be rejuvenated to do the work. And if you are able to make changes within the institution, about for instance, like benefits, like having just "no questions asked" mental health days available, I've seen that pop up a little bit more, or the do your health care, benefits cover? You know, can folks get access to mental health resources, you actually even have mental health resources within your own organization, like bringing folks in, that people can turn to? Do you have affinity spaces and recognize that that is a place for folks to just like, release, you know, and be with one another and be in community? So things like that. I think it's hard to—or I hope that people wouldn't hear the challenge and the pain that you all share it and just think, Oh, well, it's on by BIPOC folks to figure that out. Right now. It's not we can shift the structures and the ways that our institutions are showing up so that people aren't so burnt out and you know, kind of hitting against the wall over and over.
Enrico E. Manalo 34:58
Yeah, that burnout really is a bear. So anything we can do to make sure that we're we're not setting ourselves up for that I think is super, super important. Lots of great comments, we'll get some more in a little bit. But for now, we'll pivot back to our questions here. So just to drive the point home, what happens if we don't name whiteness in white spaces?
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 35:26
The hard answer?
Enrico E. Manalo 35:27
Give it to me.
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 35:29
We're complicit in violence. Yep, we are complicit in violence. And I think, you know, back to naming in the wake, in the aftermath of slavery, a white supremacist nation, a sit, like, literally, we function in a space that is structured by white supremacy. And if we're not willing to name this and to call it out, we are complicit in the violence in the, you know, the micro, the micro aggressions in the things that are being faced by workers, by, by employees, by the folks that we are being brought into support. And I think that's what's at stake, right. And if, you know, there's been research about racism, the impact of racism on the body, and I wish I had—I can cite this directly, um, you know, cancer, people get sick, they get physically ill, you know, birth, if, if my mother was an immigrant, and she gave birth here, my—and I grew up in this society as a background person, the weight of my child at birth will be less than my my birth. Because what what I have been subjected to here. So there is something critically—we—something is critically at risk, a variety of things are critically at risk. And I think, you know, because sometimes folks are being brought into organizations to do something that is very detached from that, you can lose sight of that, that actually something is at risk here. Folks are at risk here, health is at risk here. You know, people are—this is violence. And I think that must be held. It has to be held, it has to be reckoned with it has to be named.
Enrico E. Manalo 37:03
So Dr. Webb, Can I just jump in for a moment? listeners out there might be hearing you use the word violence again, and again and again. So I wonder if you'd be willing to talk about what you mean by violence, because I'm pretty sure I have a good idea of it. And the thing about when we dive into some of the academic literature on violence, it challenges us to redefine violence and not arbitrarily right. So people think of violence as the interpersonal action. But the academic take on it takes a closer look on what violence does, right? Like what the impact is, and what that means. So if you wouldn't mind a little bit,
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 37:48
okay, so I think I can get to some of this, because I'm not entirely sure what articles you're gesturing to, I can get as specific. But I think, for me, anyway, I'm talking about yes, interpersonal, but also the aftermath of interpersonal dynamics, right? You know, if I face a microaggression in my workplace, it does not stop there for me. I take that with me where I go, I feel that in my body, it's not, I think, and I think this is perhaps something that folks who've been in a situation with a micro/macro aggression, you know, or even has, you know, if someone says, "Well, x did y to me, you may say, well, it's a passing thing, why can't you just digest it? You know, get over it?" But it's not something that's easily digestible? You know, and I think that's why use violence, because in some ways, a term violence captures the enormity of an action that could otherwise seem really simple. You know, like, really small, really? What's the word? Really just . . . But it's not.
Clarissa Fuselier 38:47
Yeah.
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 38:48
I think that's one of the reasons why I'm going to violence, right, because it really holds that it holds like the after, and the, the part of me that before and after, it holds the impact. And there's an impact issue here, right? It's not a small thing, to go to our workplace day in and day out and face a microaggression. And even when you tried to name it, there's a refusal. There's a refusal of admittance, there's a refusal to acknowledge, then the refusal becomes an additional aspect of this.
Enrico E. Manalo 39:19
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. So the things that I was thinking of, because, again, my background is conflict resolution, violence can be seen as the curtailing of of human potential, right. So when when actions happen, and we're talking about structural violence here too, like when there are structures in place that dictate human behavior, but curtail it in a way such that somebody cannot fully be themselves the fullest expression of themselves, they can then leverage that self for the maximum potential, right? And that might look—it appears in a myriad of ways, right, which is what makes it so challenging. And again, if we're not considering individual people, then we won't get at their individual experience to understand how certain actions or behaviors, certain structures kind of channeled them into becoming something that they'd maybe didn't necessarily want to become in the first place. On that cheery note, let's pivot to our next question. So, as DEI professionals, right, well, no, in your view, how can we ensure that white people are on board with DEI efforts, even as we continue to examine and analyze the impact of whiteness in our society, and more specifically, our workplaces?
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 40:47
Am I jumping in on this one?
Enrico E. Manalo 40:48
If you'd like to!
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 40:50
I think there's no simple answer to this. And I think, and I refuse the palatable, like the ease to digest like simplicity. I think this is an internal and an external, like, this is a question of an internal process and an external process, and a willingness to reckon with something that's internal, right? When we're talking about whiteness, we're also talking about the way that folks have been socialized, racialized in society, we're talking about something that began at home, perhaps when you were two, when you were three kids, he raised as young as two, three years old. And they start, like understanding racial hierarchy as early in at that point in time, as well. And so as a white person, if you're not willing to sort of sit down and question yourself about this, then there is no amount of external, anything that is going to work for you. And so I think this is one of the reasons why I say yes, external support, it can give you a resource, but there's also a commitment that is necessary, a willingness and openness to, to self evaluate, and to do some of that work through reflection through your own reading. Because again, right a DEI practitioner cannot facilitate, though, I mean, we're here to facilitate a journey. But there are also limits to what we're able to do. And I think that is an important aspect of this as well.
Enrico E. Manalo 42:17
Anybody else like to jump in here?
Jess MacFarlane 42:19
I'll share, I guess, two things are—well, the main thing that's coming to mind is a I've seen in my work, and this has been partially part of my personal experience is that white people often get more on board or there's kind of a—they can be energized around seeing how whiteness actually doesn't work for us either. Right? We're also harmed by whiteness. So for instance, in one avenue, we know that whiteness, you know, a core of it is eugenics and sort of the ideal white person, so whiteness also very much excludes people with disabilities, even if you are white, right? Whiteness excludes poor white people, right? So there are ways in which if you hold a marginalized identity, and your white whiteness is you're not enough, right under the the system of oppression that is—or this system of dominance, that is whiteness. So that's one way to look at it another way is just how it shows up in the workplace. And this is where it really kind of deepened my framework was seeing how Enrico, you talked about, you know, the people being objects of production, right. So it's all about more more, more bigger, doing as much as possible urgency. Just overworking is our current, you know, white supremacist capitalist system, that we're all cogs in the machine, and ultimately seeing how, obviously, there is violence towards BIPOC, folks. And so I'm not trying to do you know, a comparison there, but I want to name how, as white people, when we are cogs in the machine, we are also harmed by that. So I really got awareness is that when I was working at an organization, and we were just all totally overworking, you know, taking on as many clients as we could all about the profit, right. And my partner and I both worked remotely. So we went to like a cabin in the woods to kind of work in a serene environment, and be really calm, you know, be among the trees. And I was trying to finish a deliverable for a client. And I hadn't had a panic attack in years and I had a panic attack, trying to like get this thing done. And I was like, I'm in the woods, like, why am I you know, and so just to be able to kind of take a step back and look at what I was doing and why, who is this for? And how is this actually harming the, it was harming me and harming the people around me, especially BIPOC folks in my workplace, right. And that was kind of a pivotal moment for me, of, you know, really wanting to do divest from whiteness and say "no, that's not how I operate anymore", right? That's, I don't want to be a part of it. This is this is not in alignment with my values. I don't want to be a cog in the machine or treat others like they are. I want to be a part of, you know, everyone living their full humanity. And so I've seen a little bit more people kind of tapping into "Oh, wow," like, like Dr. Webb said, looking at the history of how our workplace culture is grounded in, you know, the, the way that plantations were set up, and am I just perpetuating the same thing that they were doing back then in how I'm showing up now. So that can be kind of helpful for folks to come in that way.
Enrico E. Manalo 45:43
Yeah, Jess that's like a horror movie set up, you know, like, in this nice cabin in the woods with your partner getting cozy? Who's that at the door? It's whiteness. Oh, my God!
Jess MacFarlane 45:54
Thank you for the humor in that.
Enrico E. Manalo 46:01
We've got a question here. Jeremy is here in the comments. And he's asking, he says, "My question, and I hope this comes out, right: People make mistakes, there will be someone who brings whiteness out, maybe not even intentionally. How do we keep the conversation focused on moving forward in a good direction, as opposed to a situation where other non white participants want to only focus on the whiteness coming up and not using it as learning?" So I'm sensing in this question that element of stuckness. Right. So like, just because something rears up, like, yeah, we can react to it. But how do we make sure that we're actually turning that into a learning opportunity?
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 46:46
Can I ask one question, what is forward in a good direction, quote, unquote, what does this mean? Because I think we also have to recognize that under white supremacy, progress at any cost. And I think Jess was speaking to this, progress at any cost is highly valued, if not seen as the dominant way, the right way to move forward. And so for me, it's like moving forward, we're moving on right? Progress, but also the good. And I think this also gets us back to the earlier for whom? Good for whom? And I am also curious here, as to why the non-white participants want to keep the focus on whiteness, like, do they see it, they they see something here, or within that formation, that is still informing the conversation? What is the structure of the conversation? And I think that's, this gets us back to how, how do we structure space, you know, in a way that enables conversation that is both critical and useful.
Clarissa Fuselier 47:51
Yep.
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 47:51
I think without those other contextual clues, it's hard to answer this question. It's hard to say, "Okay, why won't they move forward?" There's something else here that I think that's not being named. And I think without the narratives from the other participants, it's hard to make that. But you know, when we're talking about constructing space, we're talking about constructing a space that a container is not even a space, it's a container for this conversation, that is both welcoming and supportive. And I wonder, you know, if that space, if that space, that container was already constructed, I wonder, you know, what, how was this conversation being framed? What was the expectation of the conversation? Because it also seems that Jeremy, you have an expectation of the conversation and where the conversation should go. And I'm not entirely sure if all of the participants in that conversation were—if they they shared those expectations. So were expectation set? Was there a community moment where there was a collective, you know, a collective sort of five minute "Hey," check in, but what what about this conversation? You know, what, what are these expectations? What are your expectations? What are my expectations? What do I desire? What do you desire, because sometimes, because of our positionality, we're going to have very different desires around this conversation. And also, all of those things may not be able to come out in this one conversation. So what that then gets us back to the framing, right? If all of it cannot happen in this one conversation, do we have instead of multiple conversations? How do we then create a structure that supports all participants in what they desire? And I think that also gets us back to—that gets me back to questioning? Is there a hierarchy within the workplace where all desires aren't equal? Then what you is that then kind of indicate something else that's happening that's not being named? So I'm very curious about your question, I think is what I'm saying.
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 49:43
I think you've hit on a lot of great things there, Dr. Webb. And one of the things that I like to bring in from the conflict field is when people are in conflict, you'll notice that sometimes one of the parties will kind of be stuck, right, they'll keep coming back to the same thing over and over and over again. And that can be infuriating, right? So if you're a mediator and you've been charged with driving towards a resolution, or an agreement, especially within a set amount of time, then your your instinct might be to push forward to get to that thing. But again, that would not actually be—you wouldn't actually be able to enforce that agreement, then because the agreement has to have buy-in from from the parties, right? In real buy in, you know, not just like tacit agreement, what have you. But the thing about stuckness is often people get stuck, because they feel like something that's important to them is not being acknowledged. Right. And so it'll express itself in multiple ways, right, the mind will tie everything back to that. So one of the simplest things you can do when people are stuck, might be to very gently just say, "you know, I've observed that in the last 10, 15 minutes, I've heard you use this phrase a lot, but I can't figure out why. Can you help me understand why that's so important to you? And they'll tell you that more than half the time, they will tell you. And, you know, they might not stop telling you for a while, especially if they've been coming back to it over and over and over again, if that's the case, your job is just to kind of sit back and listen, maybe take some notes. You know?
Clarissa Fuselier 51:26
One of the things that popped up to me about this too Enrico is that I've, I've been in conversations and I've seen conversations like this about not having the proper framing, and how it can easily go off the rails. That's why it's really important to have a really good facilitator who can be not—be unafraid to manage those things. But the couple things that kind of come up in this question, too, that, you know, I want to point out for us to be careful for is intentionality, right? The one thing that I used to see in community agreements that I used to be the one to like veto, it is, "assume good intentions", because I'm like, "No, this is not the space for that. We can't always assume good intentions." And attention doesn't mean anything against impact. And so what we tell what I try to inform people when we do these spaces is that your you may do something intentional, but you must address the impact here. When that happens, we must address it. So we don't want to move on from that we want to address it because what I typically have seen happen, and I've been in some of those before I started this work is we have these real talks, somebody who is part of the dominant majority gets sensitive and starts breaking down and then the whole conversation shifts to their comfort. The other person and the other people in the room who have been hurt by what they unintentionally said, had—that has not been rectified. They're still sitting there and nobody's paying attention to what they're dealing with. And there's so an individual who had mentioned like, you can't just shake that off, you can't shake those microaggressions and things off, it stays with you, right? And so we would be doing a disservice when holding these spaces, if we are catering to one comfort over another, especially when we're aiming towards—supposed to be facilitating and helping the marginalized community, but we're forgetting about them. And I always want to make sure that when we have these spaces, that in—sometimes it's okay to stop. So that's one of the one thing about white supremacy culture is it's always like product over people and also sense of urgency, the faster the better. And so all those things we need to make sure that we're being cognizant of, there's like 13, you know, white supremacy cultures that's been outlined, you can look it up. And to Dr. Webb's point there's in—and also the Jess's point, there's a lot of them that just manifest in the workplace very easily. We have to check ourselves against those things too. Because our mantra is first, "do no harm". And we need to ensure that we're protecting the communities that we're supposed to be serving. So when it comes to like building these like spaces, we need to always be cognizant of that and try not to be part of the problem.
Enrico E. Manalo 54:28
Absolutely. So I see that we are coming close to the end of our time here. But I do want to ask, in your experience, how do you strike that balance between calling it like you see it and making sure that your businesses flourish?
Jess MacFarlane 54:50
I can start I will just say like part of my framework in my work is having an abundance mindset because whiteness thrives off of scarcity, right? It's all about competition, there's not enough so you better get what you can get, and kind of leave other people push other people out of the way. And so in my work in sort of anti-racist work, and also in my personal healing work, I've tried to foster an abundance mindset. And so that helps me be like, you know, what, if this relationship with this client, if it's not working, or if this client I can tell is not ready to do the work, I just trust there's other work that's going to come, like I don't need to—kind of, yeah, just I guess I what I want to say is I'm not focused on like the dollar signs, right, I'm focused on doing effective work. And in terms of when I'm in a space with a client calling it like I see it, I mean, I will say that that's something that I'm still in practice around, because I've had to do a lot of unlearning, and a lot of healing around being conflict avoidant. That is so deeply ingrained in me. And I know that it's part of my conditioning, as a white person, and specifically as a white woman, right, like whiteness and patriarchy teach me to keep my mouth shut, and to not engage in conflict. And so it's been a growing edge for me to be able to, essentially, I just try to name what I'm observing, right, and just saying, "This is what I'm seeing. And this is what I know from my experience, and this is what I'm offering" right? And I try to be a truth teller, but I will say that this is definitely, like I said, a learning edge for me.
Clarissa Fuselier 56:40
I, I definitely subscribe to what you're saying as well, just for me, that that line is also like just setting the tone very first and foremost, and I do love what you mentioned, about the abundance mindset, like, there are tons of clients out there. And here's the thing, I would love to see more of us team up, like where's this partnership and you know, communication and stuff. Because there's, there's no way that we—one individual knows everything about the is such a huge umbrella. And that's how we can start educating the masses and our clients and understanding that you might not necessarily just choose one practitioner in your journey, you're probably going to have many practitioners that you're going to be working with, who specialize in different things. Because as your organization grows, and changes, your goals are going to change, your strategy is going to change, your your needs are going to change. And you know, you're going to need to reach out to other people who are specializing in other areas. And that's fine. And I don't worry about like, "Oh, I'm not gonna get another business come my way". For me, it's important for me to have the right business come my way. And so I because I need to be able to enjoy what I'm doing and know that I am getting work done. So I have my own standards as well to define whether or not I want to work with this client that's best for me and my health and my self-care. So I would say in—finally, I try to stay away from transactional behavior with my clients, this should be relationship, like I said, people-oriented work, needs to be relationship. And so just like any relationship, we start in, we try to align on some values, make sure that we're aligned on like, what I'm there to do and what they need me to do. And then I start as our relationship grows, I start turning up the standard, like we're learning together, you're unlearning, I'm going to be able to feel safer for you calling out some stuff. And the way I call it out might be a little different when we first meet, but then I met by the time six months working with me, we're gonna get very real, very real together, you know, and that's how we get like the real work done. So there's a little bit to be said that there's a little bit of psychology and a little bit of sociology that goes a long way in our work. Let me tell you.
Jess MacFarlane 59:12
Yup, yup.
Enrico E. Manalo 59:13
Jessica Bantom's weighing in and saying "we need each other to balance and tag team in dealing with clients too". Dr. Webb, would you like to jump in?
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 59:24
I agree with everything that has been said here. Um, I think for me, it is I do try to, as Jess mentioned, stay away from scarcity models. And I think for me to the question is I, as Clo said, I prefer it not be transactional. And I do want a deep, deep, rich sort of experience for the organization and for myself, and I want to be able to facilitate in a way that is effective, but also balanced. And so, you know, I, I do tend to step back when I spot major red flags, especially if I've named and I've said, "Hey, but these things are happening". But, you know, if there seems to be a reluctance, just sort of recognize that something is going on. To me that is a harbinger of what's to come, and that the work is not going to be effective. And so for for what I'm saying is, I think, for me, it's about the boundaries, the boundaries that I hold, as most important. And one of those is, or the main line for me is, you know, if this is going to—back to those red flags, if this is is, if this is happening at the outset, then what is to come? And am I endangering—also your—because how can I if I don't feel that we're going to be able to communicate effectively and work effectively together, then I cannot support your employees effectively, either. And I cannot help you to do effective work. And I think so for me, the boundary, perhaps is like effectiveness. But also, effectiveness, I think, is the boundary. And so, you know, there are tests for that, that I have. And one of those is the communication, if I'm spotting things even in just initial communication, maybe time to step back, but I do hold, right? Because the scarcity can be so terrifying. Having to step back from that and say, "okay, you know, what, if this one doesn't work out, they're there. They're as Clo said, an abundance of clients. A lot of people need support.
Jess MacFarlane 1:01:40
Yup.
Enrico E. Manalo 1:01:42
Yeah, I think I'd like to just emphasize that community aspect here, right. So if you are out there still watching and thinking, "Well, I'm a DEI professional, and I do have to revert to a scarcity mindset just to get the bills paid," this is not a "shame on you". This is like what we aspire to, to move into, right? And so one of the ways that we can make that flow happen a little bit faster, a little bit better, is to leverage community, right? So if you're out there, like, "I don't know what community to join", well, DiVerity is a community that you could join, for sure. And the great thing about community is, if you're in community, and you're asking for help, well, that's what communities for it'll help you to get a sense, it'll help you to check yourself, right? It'll be like, "Hey, I'm applying for this. I'm putting out this proposal, but I'm feeling unsure about this client. Could I get somebody to check my head, please?" you know, and more than half the time, somebody's definitely going to be willing to do that they may have even been in the same situation, worked with a similar, similar client, what have you. But the point is, if you're trying to take on diversity work alone, then that doesn't lean into the whole diversity thing. Right. That's a singular point of view. So we can only do this work together. And, yeah, it can be tough, especially when we got to like, name certain things that, you know, might be uncomfortable for some of us, but that's just part of the reality. Right? So up on screen here, you can see that we're all different backgrounds and everything, no one of us has the same experience, but that's what collectively makes us powerful. Any kind of closing thoughts here or shameless plugs, you know, like anything that you want to want people to direct their attention to, or anything you're super excited about?
Clarissa Fuselier 1:03:33
Know, I would just like to say that I love these type of conversations, I love that we get to talk about some of these topics. Because not everybody has a space to do that in not everyone has space to feel comfortable talking about these things. And so I'm glad that you know, we have this kind of space to pull those things together and discuss them, you know, and hopefully, you know, some of these nuggets, get down to other folks who, you know, maybe maybe had need some validation or a different way of looking at things. That's what all this is about. There was a TikTok the other day that I ran across that had mentioned that like every creature, every living creature has some instinctual protection that helps them from birth, you know, like snakes know how to bite, bees know how to sting, because like for us, we cry for help. That's that is what we initially knew how to do. That's all that we could do is cry for help. And so I just tell people that think about that and try not to work in a silo because it's gonna be very draining in you know, more like Enrico said try to find a community of folks even if you start small and group up with three or four y'all, hey, that's something you know, something that you can bounce ideas off of. Something that you someone that you can, you know, connect with, but you know, don't be afraid to ask for help.
Enrico E. Manalo 1:05:04
I think that's great advice.
Jess MacFarlane 1:05:08
I would just plug or say to any white folks that are listening, that it's definitely been true for me that doing personal healing work is part of my anti anti racist work. And so I encourage you to do that if you're not already. And for me looking into the tenets of abolition and somatics, and just kind of getting back connected to my body, and how the values that I want to live out in this world have really been crucial for me, because I think we can spend a lot of time in our heads like trying to learn everything that we can learn about antiracism. And, you know, for me, it's really pivotable pivotal to be in the body, like, how am I actually showing up? How am I living my life on a day to day basis and doing that in both anti-racist spaces and, you know, with a therapist or whoever that is that I'm getting support around, kind of, again, like divesting from those tenets of whiteness in the workplace.
Enrico E. Manalo 1:06:09
Great, thank you so much.
Dr. Nadejda I. Webb 1:06:10
I think I just want to extend a profound thank you for this conversation. Thank you. I'm happy that we were able to do this. And if anyone would like to connect with me, please check me out on LinkedIn. Shameless plug.
Clarissa Fuselier 1:06:26
Yeah, same here. I'm always connect with people on LinkedIn.
Enrico E. Manalo 1:06:29
Great, well, thank you all so much, everybody for tuning in. The engagement in the conten—in the comments, excuse me was really fantastic. Thank you again to all of our guests as Dr. Nadejda I. Webb, Clarissa "Clo" Fusilier and Jess MacFarlane and if you're looking to hire any of our consultants, we are all for hire. So please just keep that in mind. Anyway, once again, this is Enrico E. Manalo for The "DEI is:" Podcast and just a gentle reminder you are not alone. Thank you so much, everybody. We'll see you next time!
Enrico E. Manalo 1:07:09
Enrico here. Thanks so much for tuning in to The "DEI is:" Podcast! If you're walking away from this episode, feeling like you've learned something, saw something from another angle, or if you just enjoyed it and give us a like, share it with your friends and please subscribe. Building a diverse equitable and inclusive organization is hard but finding DEI expertise and services shouldn't be. If you're looking find us at diverity.com That's d i v e r i t y.com. Till next time, this is Enrico E. Manalo. See you soon!
DEI is: Naming Whiteness in White Spaces