Links:
Abbiola Ballah
🦋pherneducationstudios.com | LinkedIn | Instagram🦋
Kaumudi Goda
🗣️thehumanconversation.com | LinkedIn
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Enrico E. Manalo
Thanks so much for tuning in. This is the DEI is podcast, a show by DEI practitioners, for DEI practitioners and the organizations that look for them. This season we're taking on what the DiVerity Consultant Network has identified as some of the most pressing issues in DEI in 2023. I'm your host as well as DiVerity's Community Engagement Lead, DEI and Conflict Management Practitioner, Enrico E. Manalo. In our second episode of season two, the "DEI is:" Podcast, we're talking to Abbiola Ballah, Founder and CEO of Phern Education Studios LLC, and Kaumudi Goda, Founder of The Human Conversation, each practitioners of DEI with strongly international lenses. The underlying question we invited them to discuss was, "what are we missing out on in conceiving of DEI with a US-centric focus?" Or to put it another way, "is DEI too 'American'?" Here's a little preview of what Abbiola and Kaumudi had to say:
Abbiola Ballah
I think a lot of this has to do with perception. People in other countries are thinking, "well, that's a US problem, what does that have to do with us?"
Kaumudi Goda
As with a lot of other things, the soft power that the US has wielded for a long time has definitely influenced workplace rules and regulations, and the thinking around what is "good", what is "aspirational", and what is "no longer acceptable" has spread beginning from the US to many other countries.
Enrico E. Manalo
"DEI is: Too American!" with Abbiola Ballah and Kaumudi Goda starts in three, two . . .
Enrico E. Manalo
Diversity. Equity. Inclusion. Belonging. Access. Justice. In our current climate, these words are configured and reconfigured seemingly endlessly, but the throughline (for whatever acronym you prefer) is trying to have a positive impact on the way that we work and of course, live with one another. To that end, such efforts are constructed with a capital "S" society in mind—that is, "everyone". Or is it? To talk about just that I'm joined by Abbiola Ballah, Founder and CEO of Phern Education Studios, and also Kaumudi Goda, Founder of the Human Conversation. So welcome to the studio Abbiolah and Kaumudi.
Abbiola Ballah
Thanks for having me!
Enrico E. Manalo
Thanks so much for being on—oh and Kaumudi, I think you are still muted. But before we jump into our questions here, I'd like to pivot to our audience. So what's your take? Is DEI "too American"? Why or why not? Okay, so while the, the responses are rolling in from that, let's turn to our first questions. So in conversations surrounding social justice, and of course, colonialism, we talk about "Eurocentrism". That is, the positioning of European cultures, thinking, and being as "normal" or even the "default" culture. When it comes to racial justice, anti-racism and even DEI, some say the conversations revolve almost solely around the US. Whether or not that is the case, why would that be a problem? And further, how does that impact the workplace? So opening this up for either one of you to jump in.
Abbiola Ballah
So I can jump in! Um, hi, everyone, I'm Abbiola and I think a lot of this has to do with perception, right? Once the perception is that, you know, "DEI is just about the US" people then in other countries are thinking, "well, that's a US problem, what does that have to do with us?" Like, "why are you bringing this here? We don't have—it has nothing to do with us." What it is, is that for me, I think, right now in the US, race, the racial injustices, and all of these—all the social justice—injustices we see in the media, it's loud. So the you—it's just loud. The world is like hearing everything that the US has to say and it's very hard to kind of then take that and say, "Hey, how does this work in my context?" Because we don't think like that. We just think, "Okay, well, that's them. I'm not gonna really—" there's this disconnect, I would say that's happening there.
Enrico E. Manalo
So it's like people don't really see themselves as part of the conversation, because there's a participant who's taking up so much space within the conversation. Is that Is that fair to say?
Abbiola Ballah
Yeah, yeah.
Enrico E. Manalo
Yeah. Thank you for that. Kaumudi, I'm wondering if you'd like to weigh in here?
Kaumudi Goda
Yeah, it's fascinating really to trace back the roots of where our current discourse and research around DEI is stemming from; workers rights, employment rights in the workplace emerged of course, from the Industrial Revolution and some of the early rights around what workers are entitled to from organizations, what the workplace should look like, even rights for women stem from the Civil Rights Movement, the early work done by ACLU, Ruth Bader Ginsburg. So as with a lot of other things, the soft power that the US has wielded for a long time, it has definitely influenced workplace rules and regulations, and the thinking around what is "good", what is "aspirational" and what is "no longer acceptable", has spread (beginning from the US) to many other countries.
As a young law student in India, I knew very clearly that if I wanted to work as a corporate lawyer, finishing my education in the US was important. And that's how I ended up in the US for 10 years, because it was the most advanced regulatory system in terms of employee rights, workplace regulations and corporate culture. And one that's shifting today, a lot of DEI work and DEI policies that workplaces around the world have adapted, stem—originate from the US and that's why you see huge overhang. The interesting thing is, it's not one size fits all. And that sensitivity and flexibility is why we are having this conversation today.
Enrico E. Manalo
Yeah, that's so interesting to kind of pull this apart and look at it, right? So one of the things that we're keenly aware of as DEI practitioners is, of course, bias, right? And anchoring bias is very real. So your first data points often kind of shape how you feel like you play into that conversation and your ability to participate, right? And some of the comments rolling in, kind of get at that, right? So we've got Mouhamadou [B. Diagne, MDiv] chiming in, and my apologies if I hadn't said that correctly, but what he is saying is, "DEI came out of the Civil Rights movement in the US. Most other countries have not had a Civil Rights movement."
Yeah. So that's that's kind of an interesting point, right? There's a clear development of these ideas throughout the American history, right? And that's not necessarily the same elsewhere, right? But where some other places are coming in is right at this DE conversation, right? They might not have had their own internal movements. And so some of it is maybe like, externally entering into their context. Cassandra [Sánchez] is chiming in, "I like to think that while some DEI topics and approaches do have very American origins, in reality, DEI is global. Context matters." Yeah, either one of you want to respond to either one of those comments?
Kaumudi Goda
I would, in fact, fr—fine tune that framing a little bit more; I think that there have been very many movements around the world in different countries at different points in time. So it would be a generalization to say that other countries have not had a reckoning, they've all had some struggle, some reframing of approaches in their own histories. It looks a bit different. It's not that it has not happened; the ideation, the thinking, the values are perhaps going to look a little bit in different vocabulary sometimes, or different framing and prioritization.
Enrico E. Manalo
Yeah, and I think that gets at one of the things around language, right? So we know that certain social dynamics can be expressed in different forms elsewhere, but the general public is probably not aware of that fact. And Abbiola, it looks like you wanted to get in there?
Abbiola Ballah
Yeah, cuz I was gonna say that I do agree with what Cassandra is saying, especially about context mattering, because I think what ends up happening in the DEI space and then when we talk about this topic, the initial thought that comes into people's head is that "oh, we're talking about race. We're talking about racial injustices." However, DEI is—race is a big part of this, yes, but we tend to forget all our other identities that we hold, you know, and that intersectionality that comes with that. So when we start taking all of those things into consideration, yes, context does matter. Because it is so nuanced. And it's not this cut and dried just like, "oh, it's about Black versus white. It's about Brown versus this." It's not just about that. And so we can't just say, "hey, here's this one size fits all", and I think Kaumudi, you, you mentioned that, right? This one size fits all like, "Oh, we're gonna tell you exactly what to do in order to make, you know, for us to start thinking in this global way about DEI". We can't because we're three people here on the thing, with so many intersectional identities, yes, but we also have so much—there's also much else out there, that we can't speak to, that the nuances are there. So, yeah,
Enrico E. Manalo
Yeah, it sounds like part of what is being said in this room right now is when we're actually thinking about diversity, we're thinking about difference and difference looks very well, different, depending on the context. And we have to get intimate with that difference. It's not enough to say, "Yes, this is point blank how we handle difference", right? This is how we will field any and all kinds of new entries into the field, which would be kind of ridiculous if we think about it. So if we're pivoting to the concept of inclusion, right, so now there's been more of a shift. People are aware of diversity, they're aware of equity. Yeah, this is like a very generalized narrative, but now I'm seeing more people pay attention to specifically inclusion and belonging, right? But, you know, even that concept, inclusion, like how far does that kind of generally extend in your mind, and why?
Kaumudi Goda
I would like to provide some context, from my observation of a few different anecdotes come to mind. There's one colleague working out of India who complained that, for Martin Luther King Day, there's a company wide directive to take time off and reflect on the importance of racial rights and progress there. And while that is, of course, incredibly important, coming at the busiest season in India, where people who are working overtime, are likely not paid very well for that overtime, putting extra pressure on those people to work late hours, when it's not safe for women for instance, or public transportation logistics is not available after a certain hour, for them to work extra so they can take that time off the following day, when perhaps discourse on race is not the most urgent when public safety, basic minimum access to health care, or inclusion of women as a workforce with unpaid labor and other areas are the most urgent in terms of needs and priorities.
If you see that that is a mismatch, and a little bit of people saying "that—that's actually putting more burden on me today". And so that's when perhaps it will that that disconnect, the cognitive dissonance comes in, where "you're talking about Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, I don't feel included, I don't feel like I have an agency or voice in participating in the conversation as a person who counts as a demographic that counts".
This is also true in terms of perhaps talking about LGBTQ in a lot of Asian countries where that is actually criminalized. And so you can have a wonderful Pride event in the office, and the person steps out of the office and right back into the closet immediately, because it could mean either being jailed, or being stoned [to death]. And so those sorts of data collection could be putting people in jeopardy as well. And I know HR heads who have taken the call independently that "we will not collect this data because it's plausible deniability. If the government changes and becomes hostile, again, it's safer for my people to not have that demographic collected in my company".
So these are important factors. And these are three important conversations, which is why I think regional offices need to have greater voice in discussing how the DEI agenda, and values and priorities of the organization strategically, should take into account whether or not that fits the needs and the context of each country.
Enrico E. Manalo
Thank you for that. Abbiola, any—anything from—
Abbiola Ballah
Yeah, I 100% agree. And I said it before and I'll say it again, it's that's nua—I always say inclusion is a nuanced approach, right? We cannot just say, "Hey, we're going to include everyone", what does "everyone" mean? And who is "everyone"? Do you even know? Or are you just looking at it from your perspective? "This is my idea of who everyone is. They're all kind of like me, and I'm assuming that they all, you know, think and feel the same way or have similar backgrounds". Right? And even within within the US context within a US workplace, maybe they don't have a branch outside of the US, there's still—it's a multicultural country, you know, facts, right? So there are still people within that space that—how do you know that you're actually including them if you if you don't really know who they are?
And then as Kaumudi was, you know, speaking to when you have these organizations that have such a global reach that have branches in different countries, and I think about organizations that have branches in the Caribbean, right? So I'm originally from Trinidad and Tobago (in the Caribbean) and there's so much we—we are also a multi-cultural, multi, like racial, everything "multi" in Trinidad and Tobago. And one of the things we do do within our context is we celebrate everyone, and we've done this from the school system. So we're celebrating everyone, in terms of we learn and understand about the different religions, the different people who are represented in the country, from elementary school, well we say primary school, from primary school and with that comes that understanding that even though this may not be something I believe in, or may not be something I participate in, I understand that it will respect it.
And I see that as where inclusion comes in, right, in that there's this understanding and this respect for others. It's not the same, we're not getting the same things. So yes, we may have this for example, we celebrate the Hindu holiday of Diwali, in Trinidad, do I participate in all of the the festivities? No, because I am not Hindu. However, I have family members who are, I have friends who are and I respect and understand. So I will still say, you know, "Hey, happy Diwali to you. Or think that—something as simple as that.
And I'm being very granular and very simple with this, you know, so you can understand—so that to me, when the comp—when companies, when workplaces are incorporating that kind of idea, in that—I—"we know who is in our organization, even if we don't celebrate this in the US context, we know who is in our organization in the Caribbean, we know they are going to celebrate this", right? "We're going to acknowledge that we're not going to try to put what we do in the US on them because they might not have—they don't have the same experiences or they may not—but it's still that whatchamacallit, it's still that, that give and take of understanding and respect at the end of it. That's how I see it.
Enrico E. Manalo
Yeah, so it sounds like in Trinidad and Tobago, there's like a "culture of multiculturalism". Whereas perhaps in the US, right, it is a multicultural country. But for so much of its history, the aspirational identity has been to become American. And in doing so some of that cultural celebration perhaps has been flattened. Is that fair to kind of say?
Abbiola Ballah
Yeah, and I think it even shows—and I—and this was something that I realized a while back, but it's interesting to me how in, in America, you always identify yourself as "something" American. Right? So you're Asian American, you're African American. You're, you know, Filipino American, you're whatever, American. However, in Trinidad, we're just Trinidadian. There's that difference is interesting to me. Because—Because if you're [blank] American, how is—what does that mean for that idea of inclusion, if there's still that separation?
Enrico E. Manalo
Right. So it's like more of that individual identity versus that collective identity. So let's pivot to a couple of comments now and the comments have been great, everybody thank you so much, keep 'em coming. Lakisha [C. Brooks, M.S., M. Ed., CDR, CDP] is chiming in here saying "Not understanding DEIB from a global perspective has been the Achilles heel for many DEIB officers in the US who are tasked to do international work, or those who work for a global enterprise. They cannot shift their mindset to understand DEIB means something different in different parts of the world." We've got some follow ups here.
Devin [Owens] is chiming in, "In order to achieve true inclusion (within the workplace and beyond), we have to evaluate and potentially deconstruct the systems that historically were not designed to be inclusive." Yeah, so that's definitely part of the challenge, as well. And we've got let's see a question here, from Diya [Khanna] saying, "How do we approach this work by asking more QUESTIONS to communities from around the world about their history and present day priorities? I feel as if adapting a practice of cultural humility is where we begin. Curious on the thoughts of others." So I don't know, Abbiola or Kaumudi, I don't know if you want to weigh in on this one, but I'm sure we'd love a response.
Kaumudi Goda
This has been my experience, I think the conversation is, as an Asia base—so far, I recently moved to Europe and I'm understanding and exploring the context here. As a practitioner based out of Asia, also my education was in the US, my observation is the discourse is dominated by the far more mature and sophisticated conversations around DEI in the US.
And what that looks like is what looks like table stakes for a bunch of DEI consultants sitting in the US might actually be boundary expanding work in a country coming out of Africa, Middle East, or Asia. For example, saying, we have all this data, and we've sliced it this way and that, and here's what this demographic looks like, it's a model minority, and if this is Asia, you know, AAPI month, and so you might say, "Oh, they're, they're [Asian people] very well paid, overrepresented in universities model minority in the US, but they're certainly not a monolith. In Asia, there's so many different countries in different populations with different access to education. And therefore, that same person might be the lowest-power wielding person in a workplace out of Asia. And therefore, when you change the context, the identity of the person changes. And so what might look like such a basic thing you people are having a panel conversation about that, it might be derisively looked at. But in fact, it's something really, really important. Conversation around accessibility, for instance, could be around, you know, sonification, how to make sure that data is visible to those who have lower ability to see things. But accessibility might literally be getting data in a war torn country where data is not collected at all. And so the context is very different in terms of what accessibility means and what it's—what is possible.
Similarly, if you have conversations around Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and it's dominated primarily by somebody who feels complicated relationship with power and privilege, a woman from North America and Europe might feel they are shortchanged minority, but they're a very, very privileged, advantaged person, if they're in Asia, they have demi-god status, whether it's, you know, post-colonial overhang, or whatever you might call it. And therefore, they need to also accept and embrace that complicated relationship with power and privilege and acknowledge that "I cannot simply be in a different country where I'm very privileged, continue to hold on to my feeling that I'm underprivileged, and then I'm treating everybody as a guest of my space, when in fact, I'm the guest of their space. They deserve own the stage, they deserve autonomy, agency, a voice, and these are shifting contexts that complicated, unfortunately, cancel culture and all of our brittleness around this topic means that we simply unable to hold that more than one thing can be true at the same time.
Enrico E. Manalo
Yeah, I mean, to your point, one of the things that I'm seeing there kind of is cause for concern is, the more that we're able to understand our particular context and how power is expressed, the more fine tuned we have to get in our efforts, right? But what we're not seeing is people's ability to engage with that complexity increase, right, we talk about resilience, but instead, what I'm seeing is people becoming fragile along more points of "weakness", if you want to call it that, I don't know. And I'm seeing you too, not along here. So I don't know if Abbiola, you've got something to say?
Abbiola Ballah
Yeah. 100%. I completely agree with everything. And I, I don't even want to reiterate everything both of you just said I just want to add to it. And what I want to add is, you know, the question that came up about "what questions do we ask?" Right? I think we, we know—how do we approach us with questions, right? We always have questions. But I think what is missing along with the questions is do we want to hear the answers? And are we going to listen to those answers? And are we going to unlearn right? Yes, we can ask we can come up with 1000s of questions to ask everyone. But what are we going to do with those answers? And is there going to be change that comes from that?
Enrico E. Manalo
That's a great point. That is a great point and also itself an unanswered question. Yeah. We've got Elena [Joy Thurston] weighing in here, saying "When I work with international employee groups, I found it helpful to actually start the inclusion conversation about around LGBTQ+ issues because it includes every race, every ability, and every income level. It's been interesting to address international inclusion around that perspective." Yeah, so to your earlier points, both of you, like, race may not be the most salient issue of inequity—any of the DEI spectrum, really. And so finding something that's going to resonate is really, really important, because we can very easily (as we've seen) turn people off from the work if immediately, again that anchoring bias, they're saying, "I don't see myself in this, I'm not part of this conversation. That's over there", right, we got to hook people from the very beginning.
And so being very thoughtful about that is very hard, but it's, it's super, super important. So if we're pivoting back to our audience here, and thank you, again, for all your engagement. "What is a clear indicator that we need to amp up or alter our efforts around inclusion, either at work or outside of work?" So as those are coming in, we'll move into our next section. So I'd like to hear from both of you, as the US is a nation and society with deeply international roots, how can we create more meaningful inclusion in the workplace at an international level?
Kaumudi Goda
I've seen some good successful stories, Enrico, so for example, recognizing that if you're seeking to increase representation in STEM, ensuring that there are role models and mentors and educators available in schools. That could look sometimes like providing—making provisions for period products so children, girl—girls can continue to go to school and have healthy experiences in school. It could look like an organization like Goldman Sachs tying up with a business school to ensure that they provide management education, to increase representation of minority owned businesses, so that supply chains can support more minority owned businesses. And those can have revolutionary and cumulative ripple effects across communities and societies. So whether it is building communities up and providing microfinance, healthcare access, or education, all aspects of business holistically, not just within your workforce, those have been the most boundary-spanning impactful efforts that multinational organizations originating from US have undertaken elsewhere.
Abbiola Ballah
I'd also chime in on that, in that, you know, you asked the question, and I come at this, I always like to share the perspective I'm coming from. I'm an educator, right? I've been in the education space for over 20 years, from high school, university-level curriculum and program design. So when I think about when you ask the question, how do you create meaningful inclusion in these spaces, the first thing that comes to my mind is, well, in order to actually start to do certain activities, and have like, you know, these outcomes and all these things, what exactly is the problem? Right, and the problem looks different in each space. So until we actually say, "hey, let's stop just like looking at what everyone else is doing and taking their, like examples and trying it out for ourselves. How about we go in and assess what the root cause is, in our organization?" Do that analysis to actually find out, okay, this is why inclu—we are—we don't—there's no impact on our DEI initiatives, the inclusion is just not there. Or people are not feeling like they belong, or that they can thrive in our organization. This is what it is.
Enrico E. Manalo
I mean, to your point, Abbiola I've kind of wondered, you know, so like, with people kind of that is a tendency, right? When something is successful in another context, there's a tendency of people from the outside looking in, they'll see that and they'll try to take it and replicate it in their own context, right? That's that's a normal thing. Until it isn't until it kind of breaks down, right? So I guess for me part of creating this conversation, one of the unspoken conversations, but I think it's salient to raise now is like, "how do we make sure that our efforts we're inclusion aren't ultimately another form of colonialism", right? Because we know that ideas are—can go viral, right? And if if there's a misapplication of an idea in another context, then people might do it and say, "Oh, that's how it's supposed to be" not realizing that they're just kind of perpetuating ideas that have very little to do with their own circumstances.
Abbiola Ballah
Yeah, it's true. I 100% agree. And I think what ends up happening, and I think it's happening right now, is when these, these activities that they're doing these—don't work in their context, people become disillusioned. And I think that's a big—in society right now. There's so much disillusionment with DEI, and DEI initiatives, and a lot of organizations are like cutting that from their—you know, people are getting laid off, let's say it as it is, right? Because they're like, "but we don't see the impact."
Kaumudi Goda
Yeah.
Abbiola Ballah
"But we did everything everyone else was doing. When everything kind of like blew up in 2020. We did all the things."
Enrico E. Manalo
Right, "their stock went up several percentage points. So why isn't ours?"
Abbiola Ballah
Why didn't ours? Right, but what they didn't do, as I said, if they didn't figure out what actually would work for their own context, and it goes back to—I think it's Cassandra, correct me if I'm wrong—context matters. Right? And I think so—and what ends up happening is in order to find—to figure out your context, that's The Work, it takes WORK. And it also I always say that inclusion is not the goal. It's a journey. Because if you think of it as just the goal, you're just work—so what happens after that?
Enrico E. Manalo
Yay, we're all included!
Abbiola Ballah
We're a utopia! Yay!
Enrico E. Manalo
That's all it took everybody!
Abbiola Ballah
That's all it took! Oh, my God. But, but that's not the case, right? It's actually a journey. It's a journey that we have to, you know, try things. We have to assess things. We have to iterate on things, right. It's the cycle. As we learn more, we do more, because what we're doing now is based on the knowledge that we have now,
Enrico E. Manalo
That's true.
Abbiola Ballah
what I do in the future is going to be based on the knowledge that I've learned from what I did now, right? It's that ripple effect in that thing. And a lot of the times people don't want to hear that because we also live in a society where we want things done now.
Enrico E. Manalo
Right,
Abbiola Ballah
Or else.
Enrico E. Manalo
But the reality is, if we're really addressing issues that arise around diversity, shocker, we're going to need a diversity of approaches.
Kaumudi Goda
Yeah.
Abbiola Ballah
Oh, my gosh,
Enrico E. Manalo
Weird. So weird. Well, so if we're kind of thinking beyond borders a little bit, what would the benefits be of creating workplaces that are more inclusive of the global population?
Abbiola Ballah
I love that question. But I also don't like that question.
Enrico E. Manalo
All right, let's talk about why you also don't like that question!
Abbiola Ballah
I think, I think because the benefits aren't clear, we're human beings. Like, we're not, we're not living in a space where we feel like we can't fully be ourselves—that we have to "mask" all the time when we come into a workplace, you know, that we have to that we're actually uplifting voices that we've never heard before, that we're actually allowing people to thrive in the workplaces not just survive, right? That's, I think, you know, it's, it's so simple yet it's so difficult. All of this. And I think that's why I don't like it because I can say all these things. But again, my educator and my curriculum design brain is like, "but how are we doing that?" Like, what exactly can we do to have that impact? Where does that start?
Enrico E. Manalo
Yeah, that quality of life question, I think is a big one for sure. So we've got some comments coming in. From our audience question. Right. So Dr. Jill Creighton mentions "A great indicator that we're in need of an 'amp up' for me is keeping an ear out for a lot of "meetings before/after the meeting" to understand who doesn't feel heard, or knows they need to strategize with others of similar identities to figure out how to be heard." I think that is a great indicator. Let's see if there are others, not seeing too many others. So, I will of course, pivot back to another their audience question. Right. So this one being "what is one thing that the recent push for greater inclusion has stirred in you?" And that's intentionally vague, everyone I know. But what is it? Where we are with inclusion efforts right now? The recent conversations and everything, what does that evoke for you? What does that bring up for you? I'll leave that up as we kind of move to our next question here. So in your mind, if inclusion efforts were to become less centered around us, and were able to factor in the global context, what benefits would we be able to unlock? Perhaps how would that impact the work culture that exists here? So perhaps a speculative part of the question, but interested in your responses nonetheless.
Kaumudi Goda
I think that the some of the points we've discussed before, that Abbiola has raised as well are really relevant here. To some the question of "is there a business case for inclusion and multiculturalism" might seem done to death. But therein lies the fallacy. It might seem like it's over-discussed, over indexed. But it actually there is a huge need and huge gap, depending on which country you're looking at. And therefore, it's funny that on one hand, it's done to death. And people are like, "I don't want to have to prove that anymore". The business case is just outstandingly clear. At the same time, you need to iterate it and repeat it again and again, because not every ear has heard it, not every ear that's heard it has absorbed it. And it's not really come to life in many contexts, many places, it gets only more complicated when people who are in different parts of the journey are all now working together. And to that point, respect and being able to handle ambiguity and complexity is absolutely important on that count. Multiculturalism is a fact. We cannot escape it. But is everyone benefiting from it? And how can we make sure that we are at once pragmatic and acknowledging the reality of the economic downturn and the fact that people's jobs are at stake, people are getting laid off. And that's as true and enabling executives of every demographic to survive that is as important as not completely shortchanging the efforts and progress we've made so far. How can we have both of those nurtured at the same time?
Kaumudi Goda
Thoughts, Abbiola?
Abbiola Ballah
I just agree. I'm here like I'm like, "yes." Because I think it's just so important that we, we, we stop it—I'll put it plainly, that we "get over ourselves" a little bit.
Enrico E. Manalo
I gonna to do the facilitator thing, "say more", "let's unpack that!"
Abbiola Ballah
Because I think a lot of the times we we're centering ourselves, and how we feel, right, and, you know, if we think about those in positions of power, that's what ends up happening. Right? I mean, like, "but, but what is this gonna do for me what it's going to do for our bottom line? What is it going to, you know, is this going to? What is it going to do politically? What is this gonna do this way?" Right? And that—it ends up not being about who it needs to be about. And I think it's important. That's why I said, we need to get over ourselves and realize that sometimes it's not about us, it has to be about others.
Enrico E. Manalo
Absolutely. And you know, picking up on that thread of maybe something being "done to death", right. There is a cultural trait in the US that prizes, novelty, right? We see it all the time in the business context, "innovation, innovation", like "okay, we're enamored—enamored of innovation". Why? "Because the new is better," like, where does that come from? Like, what logic is there? Like that's really mostly a cultural trait, right? And so if we're sitting there saying, "I'm bored with this, I've heard of this before, let's move on," then that absolutely becomes about our own boredom and impatience, rather than actually, the issues at hand here, which are people who maybe can't afford to be bored are being negatively impacted by the run of the mill things that happen in our businesses and in our lives. So I think it's it's definitely worth thinking about. And that leads me to my next question, which is, "how can we ensure that inclusion doesn't center or privilege certain groups over others and I guess, you know, the whole push for social justice and DEI as a whole?
Abbiola Ballah
Oh, go ahead Kaumudi.
Kaumudi Goda
It's a very specif—thank you Abdullah, first of all, for allowing me to go—one of the the most toxic things that I noticed when I transitioned from living in America and working there to back—moving back to Asia is, in addition to the fascination with novelty, there's also this deification of the charismatic, assertive leader. There's very much the culture of a superhero, superstar executive who's going to set the world on fire, break things and innovate fast. And that simply does not translate into all contexts. Many contexts, many cultures, you have to quieter—if—to use a trope, a more introverted, soft-spoken leader who's more rooted in community and teamwork.
And, unfortunately, I've observed way too many empowerment courses, leadership programs run by organizations, where they train people to speak assertively and have charismatic executive presence, and it is genuinely soul shredding, when you're told that your approach that you've successfully developed and use to effectively lead your local team is going to make you a weak, unimpressive leader, when you translate into a multicultural boardroom. And these kinds of tropes and ideations are perhaps the first thing we should discard.
One of my favorite metaphors I learned in coaching school, is that Canadian Inuit have more than 53 words for the word "snow". And that is perhaps a vocabulary that is completely irrelevant in a desert. And so our question should be, what is it that you have the most nuanced vocabulary for? What is it that you care about? And let's honor that, and let's appreciate that my need for having 53 words about this substance is equally important as your need to have an extremely nuanced distinction for one substance yourself, both are equally important. Neither need to compete in this space for all of those conversations.
Enrico E. Manalo
That's a great framing and great point.
Abbiola Ballah
I love that so much. It is—but it's so true. Right? And I think one of the other things, you know, piggybacking on all of that, I think one of the other things we kind of forget is that we use our logical brain a lot when it comes to DEI. And that helps us to kind of disconnect from the people who are being harmed. Right. And I think it's, it'll, so we will put out these presentations, we will talk about this, kind of more in—like this overarching sense. But what you know, and I say this to a lot of my clients as well, what we're forgetting is that we also need to have that messy, vulnerable side too.
Kaumudi Goda
Yes.
Abbiola Ballah
And without that with only the logical side. And without the messy, vulnerable side, then there's always going to be that disconnect. Right? And there's always gonna be that idea that, you know, "but I did, I did the thing, we had the workshop,"
Enrico E. Manalo
Right.
Abbiola Ballah
We had, you know, we gave them an entire like, series for them to watch at the beginning of every year, they have to go through that. Right? Because we're not thinking, "Oh, but what does that make people feel? What is coming up for people?" Because one of the things to remember is that a lot of this is part of our life experiences. They determine how we are—how we respond to certain things within our professional life, or personal life, right? We never know, what are somebody's triggers.
Enrico E. Manalo
Yeah.
Abbiola Ballah
You never know, what are other people's biases. So without having that space, to, to even or even like thinking, how can we have that space to open up this messy, vulnerable side as well? Then who are we centering?
Enrico E. Manalo
Right? Maybe no one maybe it's like economics where they talk about, like an "econ" rather than an actual human being right. And that causes all kinds of problems for economic models. So we've got some responses coming in here. I think this is to something that we were talking about earlier. So the business case, so Elena [Joy Thurston], is jumping in again, saying "But Gen Z has proven that they don't want DEI policies to be based on a business case. Maybe the executives need to hear it, but Gen Z will see through that as the motivator as in authenticity in a second, I'm not sick of the business case, I love the numbers, but the next generation of employees does not consider it as the reason to be diverse and inclusive." Thoughts on this response?
Kaumudi Goda
I agree, I think that the—of—what is the need of the hour in each generation might evolve. But nevertheless, we're all standing on the shoulders of giants. Some of the rights that we enjoy today and take for granted, were grounded in very real struggle of life and death. And there were a lot of effort of countless people that went into what we have today. And therefore what's perhaps important is, as the next generation comes into the workforce, and they have a different ethos, and a different lens with which they look at things, they nevertheless educate themselves, and be aware of what the journey was so far, because if we do not understand the history, we may lose the value and the progress we've made, because we backslide, I've also unfortunately, had conversations with very young people who are fascinated by the idea of gender roles, and they say those are beautiful, and [indistinct]. That's because they were born in privilege, where gender roles for a lot have—been dismantled, if you will, that's been their experience, therefore, they romanticize it. Knowing history is important, no matter what the shift is, understand where you're coming from, so that you can make informed decisions. And I agree with what Abbiola said, it's relevant for this conversation as well, which is that it will continue to be messy and complicated. Our values have to evolve, what our values were at 19 cannot be what our values are at 39.
Enrico E. Manalo
One hopes not!
Kaumudi Goda
Yeah, definitely, it will be messy, it will be complicated. If you're gonna cancel me, based on what I said, 10 years back, you're probably not allowing that space for growth.
Enrico E. Manalo
Right? That was a different person, and in different time, and a different cultural context. So we got somebody else here, that's Clarissa Fusilier chiming in, a DiVerity Network Consultant, "We can't do this work without community and community is a tough nut to crack in the Western hyper-capitalist society where people are numbers and to be, "professional" is to be cold and calculating. All that is yt supremacy culture and that is what we as DEI educators in the US are fighting against." Yes. Thoughts there Abbiola?
Abbiola Ballah
I love that she put professional in quotes. I mean, I do it too, like, even when I say it, I be like, yeah, "professional", because what does that actually mean? Um, and I think it is, it's, you know, a lot of this is that dominant—what dominant culture is telling us to believe. And sometimes even I have to check myself, I'm like, "am I—am I thinking this way? Because I think this way, or am I thinking this way because people—this is what has been thrust upon me," right? And it's as DEI educators and practitioners, professionals, whatever we want to call ourselves at this point, you know, a lot of the times we—we have to also think about, what does it mean for us to disrupt and to dismantle what—and to help others do the same, right? And in that professional context, what does that actually look like?
Enrico E. Manalo
Yeah, good point. So I guess the next question on my mind is, how can we like, moving forward, right? So if we're aware that at the heart of the conversation or like, the perception is that the US is driving these conversations the discourse around DEI, how can we ensure that DEI efforts, inclusion, doesn't center or privilege certain groups over others?
Abbiola Ballah
Yeah, I think that, that there's no simple answer to that. Probably not what some people wanted to hear me say. But I, you know, I, I struggle with this question a little bit, just because I'm like, how, how do we do that? I mean, I'm not sure. I'm gonna be honest about it. Because I can tell you grand ideas, but are those grand ideas actually going to be realistic? This is me. This is who I am. In this space. I'm the person who always asks you why. And I always go five why's deep. Because I want you to really, you know, think about, are you really able to do all these grand things? I call it grand gesture syndrome. Because a lot of the times when it comes to answering these questions, we go into grand gesture syndrome, and we talk about all these big things. But are we really gonna do those things?
Enrico E. Manalo
It's like New Year's resolutions, right?
Abbiola Ballah
I know! Like, how many of us are still holding on to those on May 24? I know I am! [Indistinct, laughing]. Um. So sorry, Enrico, maybe I'm not answering your question!
Enrico E. Manalo
No! We're talking here as professionals, we're being professional!
Abbiola Ballah
We're being professional! But I'm very realistic about it. And I think what it comes down to is really getting granular and really figuring out what exactly can I actually do, that I can actually commit to doing it no matter how small it is, because I always say these small actions can create big impact.
Enrico E. Manalo
Yeah, and you've mentioned like the need to iterate right? So part of the current thinking on iterate—iterating is small interventions, frequently, right? It's not these grand gestures. That's re—that's where we get into that whole reinventing the wheel kinda piece.
Kaumudi Goda
And I'd like to add here, so mine's a perhaps slightly more pragmatic observation, building on what Abbiola's point around the "why", why am I wanting to do this? And what am I willing to do in service of that resolution? If you triangulate it at a systemic level, being flexible and context sensitive, understand what is the need of wherever you're working with the people you're working with. And enable them, give them agency, give them resources, give them a voice to genuinely say, "here's what we care about", don't add, judge—your judgment and layer that on top. If that's what they want to work on right now, that's what's feasible for them right now enable that to happen. So at a systemic level, I think, sensitivity to the regional need and priority, and the context and willingness to think outside the box. If you have this much budget on DEI, and you have effort to spare, maybe for this year's society improvement or social justice efforts that your social day or whatever impact today that you have, consider working with a locally rooted NGO or government to do something that will actually have community-level impact. Or maybe that looks like policy, maybe that looks like working with local organization and grassroots that's already doing something good. So that's systemic.
And on the local, you know, advocate side, I am really working extensively right now on helping people recognize the importance of having boundaries. It becomes a really "encouraged" thing, to kill yourself at the altar of social justice, ultimately takes a toll and people are burning out, they're often that the glass cliff; they're brought in to solve an unsolvable problem, and then heads will roll. And this takes a toll because it's not just a neutral, objective, thing I am solving for in a lab. This is my identity that I'm working on, I'm sacrificing my story, my suffering, to bring this to your attention. And so people who are working in this field, it please don't suffer, please have some priority for your own well being have some boundaries, assert them. It is not okay to burn yourself up trying to solve something that you may not be able to solve immediately.
So that's the second part, at an individual level, and cultural level, if leadership is more willing to acknowledge their privilege and power and that is a complicated subject, I have my own triggers. And I might still be extremely privileged in ways that I'm blind to, compared to the next person sitting, sitting right next to me. And I should be willing to listen and accept feedback. And that's very difficult. People are very brittle, particularly about emotive topics like this. So if I consider myself to be a good person who's extremely woke, and a very terrific DEI advocate, and you come and call me out on something that I did that was super insensitive, or I'm blind to my privilege, I've been mortally offended because you hurt my self-identity.
Enrico E. Manalo
Yeah.
Kaumudi Goda
And so for leaders, that ability to hold space and having compassion for themselves and others, curiosity, and willingness to take feedback, that's the triangle. Systemically empower it, give them agency budget resources, at an individual level, give them the ability to establish safe boundaries. And at a leadership/culture level, let's have an attitude of learning, compassion, and curiosity.
Enrico E. Manalo
Yes, I think that's, that's a great thought. I wonder if we have time for one more comment from the audience? It's kind of—kind of a big one. So let me know. But it has to do with anti-Blackness, is that something we're—are those waters were willing to wade into in our last few minutes here?
Abbiola Ballah
Sure. But before we do, can I just highlight something that Devin Owens said?
Enrico E. Manalo
Sure!
Abbiola Ballah
Devin said, "And what you can sustain!" when it comes to all of this, I think that is so—I saw that and I was like, "yes!" Snaps. Exactly.
Enrico E. Manalo
It's true. I mean, that also brings to mind for me, like something I was introduced to, is like, "Circles of Concern, Circles of Action", right? So that's Stephen Covey. And the idea is like, it's these concentric circles in the very middle is like our Circle of Action, so the things that we can have a direct impact on ourselves today, right now from wherever we're sitting, right, and then just outside that circle, is our Circle of Influence. So things we can have an indirect impact on. And finally, the largest circle is our Circle of Concern. Many times we get tripped up because we get wrapped up in our circle of concern, and miss out our opportunities to have a direct impact today. So I think, you know, definitely thinking about our social locators and where we're actually located, you know, maybe within the organization or even just geographically it can have a great impact on on taking real action.
So this last thing that we'll dip into, Madeline [Grigg] is chiming in here saying, "Something that this conversation is making me think of is global anti-Blackness and how anti-Blackness exists everywhere. There's so much diversity within cultural contexts. But that seems to be an underlying mechanism of oppression." So I think this is in response to the general thread that we've been tugging on here, which is diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, all that stuff looks different in different contexts. I will still hold that that is true. But yeah, there are underlying sources of oppression, like, for example, anti-Blackness, among others, but curious about your thoughts here.
Abbiola Ballah
Yeah, I agree. I mean, it's there. I mean, I think about the culture that I come from in the Caribbean. Right? A big, you know, issue right now is that idea of colorism, that the lighter your skin tone, the more privilege you have, versus the darker your skin tone, the less privileged you're seeing. And that shows up in when you go into a store. Right? Who do they initially initially go to? They go to the one who is of the lighter complexion, who is seen as someone who is, you know, someone they would listen to, right, so many people have this idea that, and that's, you know, that's our version of that anti-Blackness. And I think all of it stems from that idea of white supremacy, colonialism, thinking that the people who came and colonized the Caribbean are, you know, they they "saved us" in some way are there you know, that, you know, idea of the white savior coming in to help and to to make things better, or we're giving you all access to all these things, we're giving you these resources, all of these things make up a part of not only how we view ourselves, but how we view others in in through this lens, right, of colorism, of anti-Blackness, of all of that. Right. And it's, it's, it's there, in I think, in every society. I lived in Japan for 10 years. And I saw it there as well. My friends who were—my friend from Kenya, a darker complexion than I was was seen very differently by students versus me. I even had a student come up to me and asked if my skin was dirty, because they didn't understand different complexions, right? You know, and having to how do you enter into this conversation with a five year old? With a five year old?
Enrico E. Manalo
Yeah.
Abbiola Ballah
Right? So it's, it's out there and it's everywhere, but it just looks a little different.
Enrico E. Manalo
Yeah, just to drill down on that a little bit a five year old in Japan, asking if a darker complected person's skin is that way because it's dirty, might come from a very different place than a five year old from the United States.
Abbiola Ballah
Exactly. Exactly.
Enrico E. Manalo
Kaumudi, would you like to weigh in here?
Kaumudi Goda
And speaking as a person who grew up in countries with a huge colonial history, it's very hard at this point to separate out the cause and effect. Colorism is certainly rampant Enrico, everywhere in all cultures that I have observed colorism is is rampant. Is there an understanding of where that emerged, or was it there previously,historical texts indicate that there was certainly far less ideation around the value of lighter colors versus darker color, at least in in my country's history when I was born. So it's hard at this point, after so many years of colonial oppression, how those ideas became so embedded and unfortunately, caused so much damage. Fairness creams in Asia, are a really horrible and persistent cultural artifact. And it's absolutely from that belief that the European beauty is the ideal standard. Indian film industry is famous. And those continue to be the stand—beauty standards even till today. And so it's it causes a lot of damage. And maybe a greater willingness to talk about some of these less discussed biases that we all carry with ourselves is really important. It's certainly not a conversation that other people—that reckoning that has happened in the US, there's a reason why communities all around the world has benefited a lot from the Civil Rights Movement. And all of that this happened in the US what happened in Florida recently, Enrico with AAPI community being pitted against [other BIPOC], that's the kind of really destructive attitude that we all need to wise up to and say "we're all in this together" and some of these ancient ideas that were forcibly foisted on us. Let's discard them. Let's free ourselves from that.
Enrico E. Manalo
That's a great point to end on. So any final thoughts as we close out here?
Abbiola Ballah
I would just say this is not—this conversation is not one that can stop here. It has to keep going. And it has, we have to keep digging into it. Because if we don't even question some of the things we say, how are we going to keep moving forward? So we have to keep having this conversation and have to keep thinking about, you know, these different perspectives? And what does that actually look like?
Kaumudi Goda
For my part, what I'm currently thinking about is the fact that it's very complicated, but what intimidates a lot of people or makes them feel burnt out is the fact this idea that maybe it's impossible to solve for. But we are already in a better place today than we were before. It might not feel enough at all. And by no means is it enough, but we've made progress. And those—that progress is measurable. Today, there are more people comfortable with the idea of LGBTQ because people who are of grandparents generation now have grandchildren who are comfortable with that identity, and therefore they have to evolve their brains, whether they want to or not, they want to love their grandchildren. Progress has been made. It's measurable. That's one. The second one is that it might feel like we're "tending to the rose garden when the tsunami is approaching", but they're both equally important. We cannot absolutely abandon our DEI work because people are getting laid off. We cannot go back and slide back in progress, we have to nurture all of those holistically.
Enrico E. Manalo
Great. And so if people are looking for either one of you, where where can they find you? So Kaumudi, I'll invite you to go first.
Kaumudi Goda
I'm fairly active on LinkedIn. My website is thehumanconversation.com. And I'd love to have a conversation with you around all the complexity that DEI and making workplaces better entails.
Enrico E. Manalo
Right and especially if you're in Northern Europe, please do seek out Kaumudi she's great and available to you if you're in that in that region, but also globally. Abbiola?
Abbiola Ballah
Yeah, so you can find—I'm also active on LinkedIn. You can also find me at Phern Education Studios [.com] and on Instagram. I'm also on there @pherneducationstudios. I—you know, I'm also launching a new program called—with—in collaboration with a self-care coach and consultant. It's called the Disruptors Leadership Academy and it's going to be fire! So you are in the in the disrupting space, this is going to be for you. So you can check out any of my, my Instagram, my all the things to find out more about it.
Enrico E. Manalo
Great. Thank you both so much for being part of this conversation. It was absolutely fantastic. The turnout was really great. So thank you also to our audience. And I guess one last plug for me like I am also able to be hired. So if you're looking for somebody who can facilitate conversations and you know, do conflict work, then please go ahead. I'm also a DEI consultant.
Kaumudi Goda
Enrico's amazing!
Enrico E. Manalo
[Laughing] Thank you! And of course, if you are interested in finding, you know, independent People and Culture consultants, DEI people like ourselves, please do check out diverity.com. But until then, I think that's it for us today. Thank you again, so much Abbiola and Kaumudi! It's been a real pleasure to have you both on the show. And I hope we get to talk again soon.
Kaumudi Goda
Thank you so much both of you it was fabulous!
Enrico E. Manalo
All right. Thanks, everyone. Take care!
Enrico E. Manalo
Enrico here. Thanks so much for tuning in to the DEI as podcast. If you're walking away from this episode, feeling like you've learned something saw something from another angle or if you just enjoyed it, give us a like, share it with your friends and please subscribe. Building a diverse, equitable and inclusive organization is hard but finding DEI expertise and services shouldn't be. If you're looking, find us at diverity.com That's d i v e r i t y.com. Till next time, this is Enrico E. Manalo. See you soon!
DEI is: Too American!