Episode Description
It’s often said that “the only constant is change”, but it might be accurate to add “. . . and resistance to change.” For all the attention that DEI and Social Justice, Organizational Justice, and even Economic Justice have garnered in recent years, it’s the resistance to change that has taken center stage. Why is that and what can we do about it?
Join host Enrico E. Manalo and special guest, Katie McLaughlin, Founder, Chief Strategist & Transformation Artist at McLaughlin Method as we drill down to what YOU can do about resistance to DEI efforts and the conflict that can come with that resistance in YOUR organization!
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Transcript:
Enrico E. Manalo 00:00
Thanks so much for tuning in. This is the "DEI is:" Podcast, a show by DEI practitioners, for DEI practitioners, and the organizations that look for them. This season we're taking on what the DiVerity Consultant Network has identified as some of the most pressing issues in DEI in 2023. I'm your host as well as DiVerity's Community Engagement Lead, DEI and Conflict Management Practitioner, Enrico E. Manalo. In our very first episode of Season Two (yes, season two!) of the "DEI is:" Podcast we're starting off by talking to Katie McLaughlin, the Founder, Chief Strategist, and Transformation Artist at McLaughlin Method. She helps organizations create engaged employees and a positive, inclusive workplace culture. She uses techniques from improvisational theater to rehearse common scenarios in the work environment and adopt behaviors that support organizational culture goals. Here's a little preview of what Katie had to say about navigating resistance to change and conflict when it comes to DEI work:
Katie McLaughlin 00:55
At the end of the day, DEI is also—I would say, more importantly—about the everyday experience that people are having. And it's—that's also where the resistance lives.
Enrico 01:06
Just a reminder, if you find what we talk about on the "DEI is:" Podcast to be useful, insightful, or just plain interesting, give us a like, share it with your friends or leave us a review. Our goal is to show more people that DEI can enhance business effectiveness in many arenas of work and industries. DEI is: Navigating Resistance to Change & Conflict with Katie McLaughlin starts in 3, 2,
[Intro music]
Enrico 01:39
So to set the context for today, it's often said that "the only constant is change", but it might be accurate to add, "and resistance to change". For all the attention that dei and social justice, organizational justice and even economic justice have garnered in recent years, it's the resistance to change that has taken center stage. Why is that? And what can we do about it? To talk about it with me today is Katie McLaughlin. Hello, Katie, how are you?
Katie 02:07
Hey, I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on.
Enrico 02:09
Yeah, of course, our pleasure. So before we jump in with Katie, we do want to ask our audience a question. So what is one clear indicator that there is resistance to DEI work in your organization? So I'll leave that up for a little while. And if you feel like commenting, please do. Alright, getting right into it. So Katie, from your perspective, where does resistance to DEI work tend to come from?
Katie 02:37
There's A LOT, there's a lot of places and you know, especially when we think about resistance, change, we—our brains want us to simplify things, right? Like we want it to be really clear cut. If you've ever done any kind of mental health work, you might be familiar with something called like "all or nothing thinking", "black and white thinking", and you know, that's just one way that we've developed our, you know, our brains. And so, in reality, life and humans are so much more complex, right? And I think we probably—anyone who does any kind of self-awareness work is aware that they themselves are complex. And so the resis—where does that resistance come from is just as complex, it's embedded in our past in the workplace, that's something that a lot of people don't think about is how all of our past experiences in the workplace with leaders with teams, good, bad neutral, it all impacts our expectations of what it's going to be like, wherever you are now. And we're very quick to create patterns in our minds. So there's this like, neuro biology psychology component, that we all have to be aware of as DEI practitioners, as you know, aware, intentional leaders who want to invest in DEI work. And that's something we really have to be aware of is that it's not simple. It's complex.
Enrico 04:11
I think that's a great point. I mean, you know, one of the things that's been surprising to me, but then, you know, if I zoom out, then I guess it shouldn't be so surprising, but we're dealing with ever increasing complexity on the one hand, but what I see people reacting—or how I see people reacting—and this, this goes for me, too, is sometimes I just want a simple solution. Right? Why can't we just [fill in the blank], right? And if we really peel back the layers, it's like, "oh, because there's a historical aspect", as you said, because it's multi-dimensional, because it's happening in real-time because WE are changing at the same time. And you know, it's not like we can hit pause and disassemble the thing, clean all the parts—you know, spend our time researching the best, like—if you could only, you know?
Katie 05:04
Right, totally! Well—and I think that sometimes it can also feel like, we have to have so much like, education, preparation, like you were describing, you know, being a white person in this space, I know that there's a lot of feelings from, you know, white people of like, "I don't want to say the wrong thing", which means that we're not engaging at all. And that's just not correct, either, right? We all have a responsibility to be engaging in the importance of any kind of DEI work. And we can all be taking tiny steps to ingrain and utilize what I refer to as "inclusionary behaviors" in our workplace. While we may be waiting for, you know, our teams to become more diverse, for while we're waiting for, you know, equity policies and processes to be put in place in our organization, we can all be thinking about, you know, at the very basic, is there a space for everyone's voice to be heard, in our conversations in our team meetings, especially when it comes to change? Right? Are the changes just happening from an isolated homogenous group of people and homogenous group of thinkers? Or are we engaging with folks across the organization from a variety of backgrounds, identities, thought processes, all of that is really important. And we can all do that starting today.
Enrico 06:40
Yeah, you know, as I've worked with various clients over the years, I feel like some of what clients are sometimes looking for is—on some level—permission, right? Because it's like, "I want to be part of the solution. I definitely don't want to be part of the problem, but I don't know what to do. And because I don't know what to do, I don't know if I'm allowed to do something", it's like, "but we're all already doing something, even if we're doing nothing", that plays into it, as well.
Katie 07:11
Guess doing nothing is still an action. Right? In my work with clients and in my, you know, former kind of corporate career, action was the most important thing that I was able to really distill down as, as the missing component within our organizations. And so you know, whether that started in my career early on as a learning practitioner, it's all about, okay, what are our objectives? What can someone do with this new knowledge, right, and so much of our work in DEI, especially in the kind of, I would say, like, the early days of the pandemic, and following, you know, the, the murder of George Floyd, and all things that happened, you know, publicly after that, there were actions that were taken, but a lot of them were like, way up here in the sky. You know, it making statements, you know, working on policies and processes. All of that is good. I don't mean to say it's bad. But at the end of the day, DEI is also, I would say, more importantly, about the everyday experience that people are having. And it's that's also where the resistance lives, right? The resistance lives in that day-to-day, "can I trust that this is actually going to be followed that this is safe, that there is an intentionality here, you know, that there will be support." There's just like, so much in the day to day moment to moment experience that really needs to be focused on now.
Enrico 08:53
Absolutely. And just to highlight this for those watching, right, so many of us are aware that bias is something that gets talked about in DEI circles, DEI work. Well, it's really unfortunate that the very first efforts DEI efforts (recently), were those very high-level things, right, that set our expectations. That's anchoring bias at work. And so for many people, what happened is, "oh, that's what DEI work is. And somebody else is doing that. That has nothing to do with me. DEI work has nothing to do with me."
Katie 09:29
Yep. Right. Or, "I'm not responsible"
Enrico 09:34
Right!
Katie 09:34
". . .for DEI work."
Enrico 09:36
An HR thing or whatever, right? So we started to talk about this a little bit, but if we can dive in more deeply. So how is this resistance that we're starting to describe, how is that related to conflict?
Katie 09:52
I would say it's the core of why we have conflict. That you know, when we were talking about people and the complexity, there's also this very simple "nature of people" where we all have wants and needs. We may not know how to articulate them; the diversity and you know, beautifulness of those wants and needs, can—is where some of the complexity comes in. But we all have wants and needs. And so the, when resistance comes up, resistance usually creates conflict. That's one way that conflict gets created. But resistance, conflict, it all comes from a place of unmet needs. And, you know, that might be like I was describing before of like safety, that also might come from the perspective of the wanting their needs to be heard, seen, uh spoken about, right, addressed. You know, that's one place where conflict can come up, because we experienced this, you know, perspective of wanting those needs to be expressed. We think, maybe if we're the ones who are presenting that change, presenting, you know, the DEI work, that we have this, you know, "oh, this is my intentionality of being someone who is hearing needs holding space for those needs", and that's our like desire, or I want that people will, on the other end, will feel that and hear that, but the desire and want from the other person or people is to have that expressed in a very specific way. And so when I'm working with my clients, we start to identify what are those things that first of all, I need I want? And what are the ways that I'm looking for that from others? And then "okay, so what can I do?" Right? So do I need to be repeating, you know, the, the nature of, "hey, I want to make sure that this is a space where everyone can feel the opportunity to be brave," it might not feel safe, but there is a bravery that is, you know, required to speak up, share your, you know, true perspective. And I think it's also you're just having the permission, I want to give everybody listening here, the permission to say, "I might mess this up. And I acknowledge that", like, let's just put that on the table. We don't have to be perfect in any of this work, especially in conflict. We get better at it by continuing to, well, first of all, let's rehearse let's practice for some of the likely conflict scenarios. But then, when we're in the moment, all you can do is really experiment, rely on your practice, rely on training that you've gone through, and then meet people where they are at and respond to what is happening on the other side, not what is happening just in your mind.
Enrico 13:01
Absolutely. And I think that this is really important to highlight, this, this piece about not getting things "just so" or perfect. Right. So what happens when we know how to do something really well is we can go on autopilot. And actually, that's when really terrible accidents happens. Right? So maybe some of you out there, I've heard that statistic where it's like I forget, like some very high percentage of auto accidents happen not too far away from home. And it's when it's—
Katie 13:32
I think it's within a mile
Enrico 13:34
within a mile, right! Yeah. And it's like, because you think you know it so well, you don't have to actually engage in it anymore. But conflict is all about engaging and being in it. Right. And that means the situation could be very different from your mental models, and like how you learned to do it, which is why like, negotiation is a huge part of conflict. And like, you know, this self-reflection piece like, "Oh, what am I doing? How am I playing into this?" And I think that's, that's, it's not easy to always practice, engaging in conflict. So one of the recommendations that I make is like, well, especially now that things are opening up again, I think it'll be a little bit easier. But like, let's say you got a group of friends, and you're trying to figure out a place to eat. And these days, many people have dietary restrictions, or even just strong preferences. So even just deciding that one place, guess what, you're probably engaging in conflict, like super low-level, but—
Katie 14:33
Totally!
Enrico 14:34
routinely, people are gonna find a solution that works for everybody. And it really is that simple, but what's not simple is scaling it up and dealing with your emotions to do that, like when we have to, right? And when it comes to work, I mean, that's our livelihood, you know, so that that real threat is there of, you know, possible reduction of resources of status of anything, you know?
Katie 15:02
Thank you so much for saying that, that—as leaders, as people in the workplace who have an impact on DEI programs on change, we don't acknowledge enough the very core fear of losing your job.
Enrico 15:22
Yeah.
Katie 15:26
And your livelihood, right. If we think about the most extreme example, losing your job means you can't pay your bills means you might get kicked out of your your home. And I know—so I live in Seattle, and especially here, I was, you know, going to a panel with the CEO of one of the regional homelessness organizations and, you know, they were describing how every time they hear of a layoff, in this area, especially in tech, that they like, tense up, and really start to get anxious, because it's not that far, unfortunately, for a lot of folks, especially as costs continue to rise for just a day to day living, it's not that far off for people to be living in their car, or worse. And, you know, that is one of those empathy and emotional intelligence pieces that we really have to acknowledge that there are really high stakes for many of us. And if we don't start to, like hold space for those stakes in our decision-making, and in the way we introduce things that like, that's an natural place for resistance to come up, because we go into protection mode, right. And so like, if I were to speak up, you know, many of the DEI work in some of the early stages, like I described before, is about creating space for everyone's input and ideas. And it has not historically been safe for many people, especially of underrepresented identities, to be able to speak up without retribution. And that retribution is very easily slips into our expectations of someone's ability to do their work, of someone's, you know, capacity for being promoted, doing other work, taking on other opportunities, all of that, you know, eats at the fear around the livelihood of, you know, can I really sustain this and, you know, support my family and myself?
Enrico 17:35
Yeah, I think something that also doesn't get talked about too much is what stress does to the body, like, we know that it does have an effect. But it has a real impact on something called allostatic load and allostatic load is actually something that can shorten your telomeres. So if you've been keeping up with, you know, research on Aging, that's the thing that makes you age, you know, at a cellular level, right? So we've got this threat of taking your livelihood away this cascading thing of like status and then on top of that, if you are a person of color, if you're a woman and a person of color, that just multiplies, right, which is like, you know, if you—we're—whoever we are out there just kind of thinking like, "Yeah, this is pretty stressful", like, and not to do the comparison thing, where it's like, "oh, yeah, I—I'm not—I don't have it as bad as somebody else, so, you know, I shouldn't complain", that's not the point at all. It's just that, look, there are stressors, and if we can be doing things to reduce those stressors, then there's going to be a net positive for everybody, you know?
Katie 18:42
Right. Well, and and getting back to the topic of resistance, especially in change and conflict, that resistance is going to come from you know—that's—resistance is breeding that stress, right. And so, we do need to lower those stakes in order for people to engage and not just immediately resist.
Enrico 19:04
Definitely, we do have a couple of comments that have come in. So I think this was in response to the "not my job" stuff, right? So Ashley Bivens, thank you so much for contributing, says "Yes, I hear that all the time. It's not my job. There is a department for that." So it is funny, people say there's a department for that, but nobody seems to know which department that is.
Katie 19:27
Yep.
Enrico 19:30
Jamie chiming in. Thank you, Jamie. "There's only two ways to do this work and perfectly or not at all", that resonates, I don't know about you, Katie.
Katie 19:40
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, and—I just—there's, I feel like we could just keep going back over that same point. And so I will, I will hold back. But yeah, thank you, Jamie for reiterating that, I love that juxtaposition. Because you're absolutely right.
Enrico 19:57
Yeah. So let's go to a couple other questions that we got here. So if we're pivoting back to the audience, since we're engaging, well, like to hear from all of you, when you encounter resistance to change in your organization, how do you handle it? And you know, this could be very small "r" resistance like, I don't know, getting people to sign up for something, it could be big Resistance, like "hey, we're rolling out this, you know, multi-department, organization-wide DEI strategy, and we need all hands on deck" kind of thing. So I'll leave that up for a moment. If we're able to identify where resistance comes from, how do we navigate conflict that can arise from (specifically) resistance to DEI work?
Katie 20:52
I want to reiterate that like that—embedded in that question is probably the most important first step is starting to identify where that resistance comes from. And we don't do enough of that work in preparing for DEI work and preparing to get other people engaged in DEI work. And I say that very intentionally, because a lot of the ways that we can prevent resistance, and—I don't know if we can actually really prevent resistance, let me change that. But we can lessen the resistance, right, and we can create a space that is going to address some of those maybe "immediate gut reactions" that it might be resistance. And so—but we don't think enough about the preparation place. And I would say, especially for DEI work, we don't think enough about the preparation. And so that's where, you know, that's why we're having this conversation, right. That's why you do this podcast. You know, that's why I also give a little plug, we'll talk about it more later. But myself and another practitioner, Anastasia Greenmore from Reclaiming Us, we are partnering together on a professional development workshop next month, on May 16. And focusing specifically on that preparation for engaging with the DEI, the resistance, the conflict, so we can boost the success of our work, because that's the whole point, right? We all want any of this work to be successful. And so we have to start working more on that preparation. So we are more ready to face those different things and have tools and actions and you know, all of that. So I hope that you know, folks, we'll take a look at that. Feel free to reach out if you have questions. Yeah, preparation.
Enrico 22:48
Yeah, preparation is so so key to like, pretty much everything. You know, like, I remember, you know, that period of the summer before school starts when you're getting all your stuff, and it's on the horizon. And you know, and then the first day of school comes and your teachers like, "Oh, all right, everybody, pull out your pencils", and whatever. And there's always one kid who like, "Oh, my God, I don't have a pencil!" And it's like, "Dude, I don't, I don't want to be you." But it's like, that happens in so many situations, right? So like, we're—if I'm somebody in an organization, just trying to get through my day, do my job. And then somebody comes in and says, "Hey, we need you to be part of this solution that you didn't even know is like the solution to a problem you're like, "Well, I don't know what to do", you know? And if we don't have empathy for that, if we kind of like look down our noses and like, get very moralistic, like that's not gonna help get people ready. Right. In fact, they probably feel even less prepared. We do have more comments coming in. Thank you, everybody. So responding earlier, John Green says "Very true. And that is why leadership is so key for driving" uh "to the best outcomes for DEIB. Absolutely. And that's part of their preparation as well. Right. So they're leading they're the people in the front in some sense, we got to make sure that they are well-prepared, because there's a lot of unexpected things that are about to happen. KC Atha says, "I ask people 'what is the cause of the resistance?'" The remarkable thing about resolving or navigating conflict is sometimes you can just say, "What is this about? You know and that's it and create some space for people to tell you it's like it can be a hugely, hugely powerful, thank you KC. Ashley's coming in here. "Part of it for me is empathy, trying to understand where that resistance slash fear is coming from." Yeah, absolutely. I don't know if you've experimented with this, Katie, I'm guessing you have, I know you have a whole big bag of tricks, But you know, perspective is such a huge thing when it comes to conflict, right? Sometimes people use the example of the the elephant, right? So somebody, somebody who has a—sees the elephant from one angle, like very up close, they only see one part of it, somebody else in the room sees only another part of it. And, you know, they might argue about what it is, not realizing that they're describing different aspects of the same thing, you know, it happens all the time, all the time.
Katie 25:27
Yeah. Well, and I want to talk about that empathy piece for just a moment that it is, it is the—I believe the biggest missing skill in our workplaces today. Maybe our society, but our workplace today for sure, since that's what we're talking about. And one of the things that we—a misconception about empathy is that we have to know exactly what somebody's going through in order to have that empathy. And the other side of that, that is another misconception, is that what you said earlier of that, "my pain is not as bad as their pain." And that's part of why in my work, I use theatre as a component for helping us to start to step into that world of empathy, and emotional intelligence. You know, first, we have to be able to see someone else's interactions or reactions. So someone's resistance to change might look like [assumes a closed posture]. Right? And if somebody else were to take on that image, right, so Enrico, I'm going to challenge you to take on that image, too.
Enrico 26:39
All right. So arms crossed. Kinda tensed up right now. Really kind of looking down my nose? Yeah?
Katie 26:48
Right. Uh like, for me, I was like squinting, squinting my eyes a little bit, kind of like adding that skepticism, I leaned really back—far back in my chair, and you can check it off En—Enrico. But, you know, in that moment, first of all, you have the opportunity to see what I'm doing. Right. So you can start to recognize, see what that might resemble for you. And then when you take it on, you can start to think about very, like physically sense memory-wise, where have I felt that before? And when I felt that it doesn't matter where, right, it doesn't matter if it was the same circumstances. But we have felt that same experience. And so we can start to think about how might I get my needs met when I'm feeling that way? Right. And can I offer that as a suggestion to the group? Or the individual who is experiencing that?
Enrico 27:45
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I feel like so people sometimes hear practitioners talk about how mindfulness exercises can be helpful. But sometimes when we get into that very tense, closed-off body language, that can be a place for reflection, like "hey, why, why am I super tense right now? Why am I leaning away from people? Why? Why are my arms crossed? Where's this tension coming from?" And start to start to relax that a little bit. Lots of comments today. That's great. So we got John Green, again, coming in and saying—this is in response to the audience question—"I handle resistance to change by working to dive into the reasons for the resistance or barriers first, if there is a space where I can engage with the resistors first, then I welcome that opportunity." Great. "If this is an issue that goes beyond my scope, I tend to engage with leadership to help the process." Yeah. So this is great. Thank you, John, I think it's really easy to forget that sometimes when a problem, quote, unquote, lands on our plate, our first reaction is "I have to solve it." It's not always up to us to solve it right? Or even to solve it at all. Sometimes we just have to engage with it, or like, you know, connect people to resources that can help, you know, because I know that there are definitely things that I can't always help on. And sometimes the best thing for me to do is to step back and say, "I see this problem, I want to help you to the limits of my ability, but I can connect you to somebody who's better equipped than me."
Katie 29:23
Yes, one of the strategies that I talked about when navigating change, and I would say especially because DEI work is change, right? Let's make that first—abundantly clear that when we deal with change, we need a whole system of support that helps us go through that change. And just like you're describing, having other resources, also those resources—I mean, I love that John's talking about leadership, because you're absolutely right leaders tend to be the people who we respond to based on what they're modeling, as well as they can be the source of greatest trust for many folks. And, but we can also think about really, you know, peers that are already adopted, already bought in, who might be able to relate to someone more directly. And it's really okay to engage those peers, start to identify, hey, it seems like you're really on board with this, would you be open to sharing your perspective and how you've navigated that resistance yourself?
Enrico 30:25
Absolutely. So something that is maybe not made as apparent as it could be, but often when it comes to resolving conflicts, it's not always that "surface level", the "official channels" kind of thing. There's often a lot of back channeling, and even engaging people who are maybe informal leaders within your organization, right? So if you've got to speak truth to power, sometimes we've got to wonder, "is it my voice that they're going to hear as clearly as they need to or is there another one that they have a relationship with, that could maybe say that truth to them in a way that they could hear it as best as they really need to?" Let's go to more comments, right? So I'm sorry, I can't see who this person is. The name of this person rather. But what they're saying is "the least stressful way for me to address resistance in this space is taking time to understand what is important to the person that is resisting and elevating, how DEI will support them and their team," Yeah, absolutely—
Katie 31:28
Love it!
Enrico 31:28
great point, "making it strategically personal." I like this phrase "strategically personal" let's, let's start using this, "to their own success." Thanks. That's a, that's a great comment. John Green again, "empathy, at its core is not having the answers, but making yourself open to being present in that moment for someone." Yes, thank you, John. And thank you for being present with us. Ashley jumping in again, agreeing with John, "yes, the vulnerability to be authentic and not have all the answers." Great. Thank you all so much for these comments. So let's, let's move into this a little deeper. Right. So you do conflict work professionally, I also do conflict work professionally. Most people on Earth are not conflict professionals, right? And that's okay. Right. So what are some, like, we've already talked about a couple of practical things that we've just kind of pulled out of our bags here on the fly. But like, if you are going to make some recommendations to somebody like, "hey, we know you're gonna run into conflict, you're gonna have to manage it or try to resolve it," What are some practical steps that people can be taking?
Katie 32:42
So I want to reiterate a couple of those steps for those folks who are joining us late or just in form of repetition. Repetition helps us retain information, as I put my like, little learning hat on and I'll take it right off. But so we talked, first of all about preparation. And part of that preparation, especially when it comes to conflict is acknowledging possible sources of conflict. And those sources can not just come from your own experience, but they can also come from a variety of experiences you already have. What have people told you? How have they responded to past conflict? Have they shared concerns in the past about things in the workplace, and the other piece that's really underutilized is the engagement survey, we almost always ask questions about what people need and what people want. And we don't use that as kind of, I don't want this to be such a strong word, but as ammunition, you know, fuel maybe, for our work to understand people and understand the people in our workplace and what they need. So utilize your tools for preparation around that. Do self preparation, how are you going to respond when people have resistance? We all have a default response to a variety of kinds of inputs. Some might call it, you know, our response to a trigger, and get more aware of that yourself. And ask yourself, do why would I choose this response? It is this response, the one that I want to use when I'm engaging with folks. And then don't be afraid when conflict happens to slow the conversation down. Take a deep breath, model the fact that it is okay to give something space, it is okay for there to be a little bit of silence. And it's just like a few seconds the matter of taking a breath, right? Because when we slow the conversation down, it allows our bodies and our brains to start to start that process of regulation and that is essential. For us to reengage, you know, that kind of rational left brain, you know, prefrontal cortex part of our minds that is essential for navigating and regulating our emotional response.
Enrico 35:15
Yeah. And just to illustrate this, sketch this out a little bit, often in conflict situations, right, we engage our fight or flight response, right? So what happens there is our adrenaline starts going, our tone starts getting a little bit, you know, maybe pointy, maybe aggressive could come out different ways, we often start talking faster, and our breathing becomes somewhat irregular, right? So if we can regulate our breathing, that can that can help. And sometimes that does take a moment. And back on that theme of asking permission, you don't have to ask permission. But sometimes you can kind of telegraph what you're doing. Alright, just to keep people in the loop with you. Like, you know, "I just need to take a breath for a minute. I'm still I'm still in this with you. But I'm feeling certain things right now. And I just want to make sure that we're on the same page, right." So something that's always stuck with me in grad school is I had a really fantastic mentor in the mediation program that I took. Her name is Jeanne Cleary, she operates out of Watertown, Massachusetts. But what she would often say is good pace, good tone, good pace, good tone. You know, if we think about the conversations you want to have with people, it feels good, right? Like it's not moving too fast. It's not dragging, you know, it's moving along at the pace that you're, you're both going at, and how's the tone, it's inviting, it keeps you engaged, it keeps you in that conversation. So something to just kind of think about, as you're also considering some of those tools that Katie mentioned. Yeah. So let's turn back to the audience, right. So audience, what helpful piece of wisdom would you share about navigating conflict with someone who's just joined your organization, right? And where this question is coming from is we know that different organizations have different cultures. But what we often don't extend the lines to is how conflict is handled, right. So sometimes it's a very avoidant culture. Sometimes it's a very engaged culture, sometimes it's a very competitive culture, depending on the type of organization and the roles. So I'll let you all think about that. A little bit. We do have a couple other comments coming in. That's great. Jamie Moyer back again, it says "it also helps to share how conflict can be generative. Often folks haven't built up a resilience to conflict, and are very conflict averse." Thank you, Jamie. That's absolutely true. Conflict, as I hope it's clear, but let's just be explicit, it's a set of skills. And if you don't practice with it, if you don't prepare, then, of course, you're not going to be good at it, you know?
Katie 37:59
Well, and I also want to add that many of us in that regard, like we haven't had great role models, who navigate conflict, I would say, especially in the workplace, right, you know, generationally. And historically, the way to lead was through command, right was also through fear, right, generating that fear was often a way that you like, got people to produce, and the workplace and like our body of skills hasn't necessarily caught up to the fact that that doesn't work, right? At least not now. It might have worked in a factory. But you know, now when we are really seeking that equality, that inclusion, the space to belong, that requires us to level the playing field, lower those stakes, and also to address those power dynamics, you know, that come up? So we need a whole new body of tools to be able to engage in conflict. And that this is not a small, small effort. No.
Enrico 39:12
But yeah, the generative power of conflict is is enormous, actually, right. So mostly what we experienced is negative or destructive conflict, but we can engage in conflict productively, and often that is where some of our best ideas come from. So if we create spaces for people to be safe enough to do that, then I think we'll really start to see a real change. So moving on into our next question area. So Katie, what are the consequences of not proactively dealing with resistance or conflict when it comes to DEI and more broadly, organizational change?
Katie 39:52
So all of our organizational change efforts, all of our DEI work, ultimately have goals. Right, they ultimately have outcomes. And first and foremost, we're just not going to realize those outcomes. And it also was a fast track, potentially, for people to leave your organization. And unfortunately, I have known, I can think of one leader in particular, but I know that this is this person is not, not a unicorn, there are a lot of folks like this, who, unfortunately, this was a CEO. And they said that, you know, I don't, essentially like everybody is replaceable. And that, first of all, that's a really dangerous, problematic perspective, we don't take when we think about business outcomes as a leader, in an organization, we don't take enough I guess importance, don't place enough importance on the cost of losing someone. And you know, that cost is very, very prolific, it's not just the, okay, now I have to go and find somebody new, it's also the cost of the people who who didn't leave, they now have to do more work, there's more pressure on them, it causes them to be more likely to to be more be resistant, it's also more likely for them to leave as well. And so, you know, that is one of the biggest things that we can't overlook is not just we miss our goals, but is that we are causing this ripple effect throughout our organization that continues to reinforce the narrative that you do not matter. And your needs, and ideas don't matter. And we're doing this anyways. So see you later if you we don't care if you leave.
Enrico 41:48
Yeah, yeah, great point, it's, you know, we had a guest on the show last season, named Alysha M. Campbell, head of CultureShift HR, snd what she was talking about was, a lot of times people don't really recognize that organizations are, in fact, also communities. And so when somebody is laid off, for example, it's not just that you're swapping out a part or reducing the number of parts, like that's a community member, right, that's somebody's friend, that's who somebody would go to eat lunch with, that's perhaps a trusted confidant. And we actually don't know, we don't see a lot of the relationships, the dimensions of the relationships that exist. And so really just hacking and slashing things, it's like, you know, you don't know what kind of damage that you're going to do to the people that comprise the organization, or to how the organization functions, right, they might be serving some vital role that maybe they weren't even being paid for. But because of who they were actually ended up like, you know, making something work that maybe couldn't have worked otherwise.
Katie 42:55
Right. They might also be the only person who knows, or has access, you know, to certain things and certain processes that are vital to your business, that you then have to spend that time and energy, trying to figure out how to do it. And the other thing to think about when it comes to this like retention piece, because there's a lot of other consequences. But this retention piece is really important. We're often losing those people whose ideas and presence are the ones that could proliferate, change, and could be like exemplary of the type of culture you're trying to create through your dei work, you're more likely to retain the people who are protected by the status quo. And that makes it even harder to move out of those entrenched behaviors. And now you have to kind of rely on brand new folks to be able to, you know, be that new voice.
Enrico 43:56
Absolutely. And I mean, so one of the things that I was really interested in, in grad school and beyond is organizational silence. So to describe that very briefly. Sometimes it can take different forms, right? So for example, if somebody enters the organization, they're really excited. They keep putting forth ideas, but nobody's listening to them after a while, and they stop. Right? So that's one form. There's another form as well. Well, multiple other forms. But what can happen is if if, like, if somebody who is very vocal about change, for example, is quote, unquote, let go, you know (I'm not a big fan of the euphemism) but if they are fired, if they exit the organization against their will, this does send a clear message, but what it might also do is have a chilling effect, it might tell other people, "it's not safe to speak up. Therefore, I'm not going to" and the very reason why you hire people into an organization is not just for their skills but also for their ideas. And if you are, you know, taking away people's ability to safely contribute, well, then that's what you're gonna get. So just something to think about. Jamie Moyers is uh Moyer, excuse me, is chiming in again, "while everyone technically is replaceable, there is a point where you cannot find more workers." Absolutely true. "The Great Resignation shows how workers are not going to put up with these exploitative workplaces in this new normal." Any thoughts on that Katie?
Katie 45:36
No, I mean, the thing that—the thing that I could imagine if I put my mental self in, potentially the shoes of of a leader like this, who thinks that people are replaceable? They might be looking at the all the layoffs that have been happening and think, "Oh, well, there's now this pool of people who are looking for jobs." But that doesn't mean that you're going to find the right people for what you're looking for. And that might not mean that they're in the right geolocation, they don't have the background or experience. And so yeah, it's, why not keep the best people instead of trying to go out and find someone new.
Enrico 46:17
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Jamie did follow up and say, "not to mention the institutional knowledge that is lost." Yes. So very recently, my parents both retired from the University of New Hampshire. And apparently, what had happened is a whole bunch of consultants had come in and recommended that a—people approaching retirement age be bought out. So like, en masse, so many people about my parents age suddenly left the institution. And, you know, like, these are people who have been there for 30 plus years, that is an immense, immense amount of institutional knowledge that is now no longer available to that organization, right? So it might save you a couple of cents on on the bottom line, but if we're projecting things out, you know, it's kind of incalculable what, what that impact is going to be.
Katie 47:20
Yeah, I've seen other organizations who have, you know, offered, you know, packages and such for that, like, I wouldn't say it's just not it's not just age-based, but like tenure-based, you know, changes. And I have really mixed feelings about that. Because because of that institutional knowledge that is lost, like you've described, but we also have to consider that there are some folks who should not be there. Sure. You know, I had, like thinking about the higher-ed, I had a professor in college, who was really pain—like it was really—created a really hostile environment. And unfortunately, I had to take classes with this person, because they were in my major, you know, and so it is really important that we think about, again, that complexity, right, these decisions are not simple. They're not black and white. And we have to acknowledge that there are benefits to making big decisions like that. But there's a lot of drawbacks, potentially.
Enrico 48:23
Absolutely. So if we're being thoughtful about who's in the organization or not, that's one thing. But if it's something like, as we're seeing in some of these layoffs, now, it's like "last in, first out", like, that's just to blunt an instrument. In many cases, totally. John Green is chiming in here, "we have to work with those new employees to make sure they know that as DEIB representatives, we are available to help them navigate issues that cause them a heartburn. We instill confidence in them, that they have an advocate that will go as far as we can with them to resolve an issue, make sure they know that they and their skillset is valued and encourage them to buy into the process of seeking progression and not perfection in an organization. And that we want them to be part of the program." Well, I think we've hit our character limit for that. So if I didn't get it all, John, sorry about that. But in general, yeah, I think that's dead on. Let's see here. We've got some people agreeing with you, Katie. So Jamie saying "absolutely Katie, if there are many tenured professors who are highly problematic, not to mention leaders who buy into the status quo." Sure. John back again, "agreed Katie, in many situations, we shouldn't be having quote unquote, 'stay conversations'. We should be having, quote, 'go conversations.'"
Katie 49:49
Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I just had a friend of mine who was going through a really challenging, and I would say toxic, you know, workplace scenario and this person what was of an age identity that was different from the rest of the group and had a different background, approached things differently, especially than their leader, thought things should be approached. And essentially, that leader made it harder and harder for this person to be successful. And has basically spent the last six months trying to get this person to leave. And in reality, to John's point, let's have a conversation about, hey, I don't know that this is working for you or for us. And we're not necessarily saying that we're going to let you go right now. But let's have a real honest conversation about Is this the place for you? And if it's not, can we get to Jamie's comment a little bit later? Can we love them out the door? You know, can we not just try to force them? Right? Like we've kind of come to an agreement that we're, it's okay for this person to maybe take a little time to go do interviews? You know, they don't have to be shy about that. Yeah, it's something we don't practice. And I think it's because we're afraid. We're afraid of what that reaction that conflict that resistance is going to be. And in reality, like, we've got to do some things that are uncomfortable in the workplace, that's the only way that we are going to make change.
Enrico 51:24
Yeah, absolutely. And if we're thinking back to even just the process of growing physically, right, that is an uncomfortable process. You know, I remember waking up, my knees hurt, my teeth didn't fit together. Right. But it was necessary, right? And it takes a while, you know, so having some patience is, with all that is definitely a good thing. So another thing I'm curious about Katie, is if we're thinking about like, so an organization is taking all this to heart, right? Well, what would be maybe like one clear indicator that organizations are headed in the right direction, when it comes to addressing resistance or conflict related to DEI work?
Katie 52:08
The first way to think about that is engagement. People even showing up, you know that that's one of the first ways that you can start to realize like, Okay, well, maybe people are open to this change, they're open, you know, to this, and then when they're in the room, are they engaged, then? Are they asking questions are? Did it seem like they're thinking about it? You know, are they offering their perspective? You know, that engagement piece is, is really a first great indicator, and an ongoing indicator, right? You want those people to be engaging in each successive, you know, level of your DEI work, because it should be an ongoing process.
Enrico 52:52
Definitely. You know, and, again, this can look like many different things. You know, I remember I had—I did one workshop, where the leader of the organization ahead of time, let me know that the folks were super tired that day, they had a really difficult week, like, exhausted, and so I was worried, right, but for one, they all showed up, and they stayed to the end, like mostly cameras off, like not too much actual engagement, but they were in the room and they didn't leave, you know, so I think sometimes you've got to take your wins where you can, and sometimes if it's not, you know, if it doesn't go the way that you planned, that's okay. You just got to kind of try again, sometimes.
Katie 53:39
Yeah. Well, and, you know, another way that you can tell if you're being successful is that the resistance changes. Right, you know, does it lessen? You know, are you seeing individuals who have been resistant to change, showing up in a different way? Right. You know, it's important that like, we acknowledge that that resistance is potentially individual and we might need to measure our success individually.
Enrico 54:08
Absolutely. Couple more comments here, Ashley Bivens, back again, responding to John Green. What Ashley says is, "I was—yes, I was in a toxic workplace and my manager was actually quite kind and had the quote, 'go conversation' is a very authentic and opened everything up, it changed everything." Well, I'm glad to hear that even under adverse circumstances that, you know, that conversation was able to happen.
Katie 54:37
I mean, honestly, I'm amazed. I read that comment earlier, Ashley and I think that's incredible. You know, I part of me wants to have like a sidebar conversation with you, Ashley and find out if it was that particular leader who was contributing to the toxic workplace or if it was kind of the whole, you know, beyond that. And I asked that because part of my work while I largely work with organizations to help them make more systemic change. And in their organization, I also have recognized that there needs to be this space for people who are in these toxic environments, spaces where they're not getting any of the best practices and, you know, support that we've talked about today, you know, through this work, and so I call it the toxic workplace support group. And I'm offering that right now on a monthly basis. It's just kind of a drop in, we use some of this theater work to identify, you know, what's really going on looking at that self awareness piece. And, you know, how can I start to get some of my needs met, and maybe even protect myself a little bit in these conversations and engagement going forward. So happy to share that link. If anybody is interested in that. I didn't expect it to come up today. So please share it.
Enrico 55:52
So we've got another comment from Asjah Monroe. "It's important, though, to be real about why orgs don't quote, 'choose love', so to speak. There are some very real and clear reasons for that, sinister though they may be." That's unfortunately, true. I don't know if you've got thoughts on that, Katie?
Katie 56:11
Oh, well, I mean, part of me, most of my thoughts are wanting to follow up and and find out, you know, what are those clear, real unclear reasons? You know, my initial, my initial thought about that is the preservation of power. Right. You know, that it is, quote unquote, safer, you know, for the people in power. And that's not just identity based, right, that's potentially tenure based, that is organizational hierarchy based. But it is safer for them to not go there. Right, and not change the environment, because that that then might threaten them.
Enrico 56:51
Yeah, you know, something that I found fascinating about conflict is even the concept of the apology. Right? So I learned that one of the reasons why health care organizations were kind of discouraging physicians from apologizing to patients was because their legal counsel was advising them that an apology was an admission of guilt, even though that was found to be like, really not the case. But sometimes when people are confronted with that factor, like where they might have to admit that they were wrong, they might feel like that opens them up, that makes them vulnerable in ways that they don't want to be that they can't handle, right, or that would be really dangerous to their existence. So I don't know, it's, it's, again, often hard to kind of figure out what might be going through people's minds.
Katie 57:50
Absolutely. And unfortunately, our society is really litigious. And so, you know, we are quick to, you know, I'd say, funnel our emotions into, like, what legal or monetary recourse do we have, you know, to provide ourselves with healing. And I believe that that's really where a lot of these lawsuits, you know, come into play. And it's not just it's not just about, you know, did somebody do something wrong? Because maybe they didn't, but it's about I'm feeling some stuff, and I feel like you're responsible. And so I should get compensation for that.
Enrico 58:30
Yeah. So the last thing I'll ask the audience—and the audience for this has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much. What's one thing from this podcast episode that you'll commit to trying when you encounter resistance to DEI work, and maybe you're already doing things? So I'll modify that slightly; what is one thing from this podcast episode that you'll either commit to or recommit to when trying to encounter resistance? Not when you "try" to encounter, when you do encounter resistance in DEI work? Any final thoughts here, Katie?
Katie 59:04
Well, I love that you're asking this question, because the way that we integrate changes in our own lives and our own work is by you know, declaring, hey, I learned this, this is a way that I can start to apply it. And a model that I've often been introduced to for coaching is, "what am I going to start? What am I going to continue? And what am I going to stop?" And so I really appreciate that you added that component of, there may be some things here that you're like, "Yeah, great. I'm glad I got a little bit of validation," maybe about, "I need to keep doing this." And that is a really good action to acknowledge that. And I would also call that a win. And I really want to applaud everybody who is here live today, and who's engaged. Thank you so much, but also anybody who is listening, this is a form of engagement. And you know, this is an action that you should take as a win that you're dedicating time to this and that you—you know, care and want to help make your work more successful?
Enrico 1:00:06
Well, Katie, it's been an absolute pleasure. If people want to find out what you're up to where can they head?
Katie 1:00:14
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm pretty active on LinkedIn, please connect with me. But also, as you'll see on screen if you're watching or look in the show notes that I'm doing, I've got two upcoming workshops, one on May 9, which is a toxic workplace support group. And then if you want to continue this particular conversation and get even more actionable, exercises frameworks, my workshop on May 16 is a co facilitated workshop with Anastasia Greenmore from Reclaiming Us and we're going to focus on boosting success in your DEI initiatives.
Enrico 1:00:50
Thank you so much once again, Katie! This is Enrico Manalo with the "DEI is:" Podcast and you know, it's just been a pleasure to be here with you all. We hope to see you next month!
Enrico 1:01:01
Enrico here. Thanks so much for tuning in to the "DEI is:" Podcast! If you're walking away from this episode feeling like you've learned something, saw something from another angle, or if you just enjoyed it, give us a like, share it with your friends, and please subscribe. Building a diverse, equitable, and inclusive organization is hard but finding DEI expertise and services shouldn't be; if you're looking find us at diverity.com That's D I V E R I T Y [dot] com. Till next time, this is Enrico E Manalo. See you soon!
DEI is: Navigating Resistance to Change & Conflict