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Join us as we explore what we as DEI consultants can do to ensure that DEI efforts are not checkbox exercises! We’re drawing on the experience, expertise, and hard-earned wisdom of two of DiVerity’s advisors, Cornell Verdeja-Woodson (He/Him) and Tara Robertson. Cornell Verdeja-Woodson is Founder & CEO of Brave Trainings LLC (http://bravetrainings.com/), whose mission it is to provide a starting point for organizations to unpack sensitive diversity topics through authentic dialogue and consistent action.
Tara Robertson brings nearly 15 years experience leading change in open source technology communities and corporate spaces, including 3 years leading Diversity and Inclusion at Mozilla. Tara now partners as a consultant with technology, engineering and media leaders to help drive systemic change. Her work has been included in Harvard Business Review, Forbes and other publications. Head to Tara Robertson Consulting Inc. or https://tararobertson.ca/ to learn more!
So, how can we move beyond “going through the motions” in our DEI efforts to really get some traction on creating positive social change, not only in the workplace, but beyond it? For the answer to that question and more, stay tuned! We’ll be talking about moving beyond the performative/virtue-signaling that so often happens with organizational DEI efforts, but also about accountability—not only for our clients, but for us as DEI professionals as well!
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TRANSCRIPT:
Enrico E. Manalo 00:00
This is your host and DiVerity PBC's Community Engagement Lead, Enrico E. Manalo. How can we move beyond going through the motions in our DEI efforts to really get some traction on creating positive social change not only in the workplace but beyond? Part of the answer is rooted in what DEI consultants can be doing to support their clients' accountability to the work, and another part of the answer is rooted in what DEI consultants can be doing around accountability in terms of the field of DEI on the whole. To explore these issues of accountability, we turn to two of DiVerity PBC's advisors, the incredible, the wonderful, and the thoughtful Cornell Verdeja-Woodson, founder of Brave Trainings LLC, and for the second time, Tara Robertson of Tara Robertson Consulting Inc. Just a reminder: if you find what we talked about on The "DEI is:" Podcast to be useful, insightful, or just plain interesting, give us a like, share it with your friends, and of course, please subscribe. DEI is: "Getting Past This Triggered Moment" with Cornell Verdeja-Woodson and Tara Robertson starts in 3 . . . 2 . . .
Enrico 01:15
Hello, and welcome to The "DEI is:" Podcast. This is what could have been our very first episode, but I'm so glad that it's happening today. We're here with two of DiVerity PBC's advisors, Cornell Verdeja-Woodson, founder and CEO of Brave Trainings LLC, and Tara Robertson, principal of Tara Roberson Consulting Inc., and one of LinkedIn's Top Voices of 2022. Brave Trainings offers many workshops focused on topics such as ally ship and building a culture of belonging in the workplace, a train the trainer's program, and of course, strategic planning through executive coaching and consulting. Back again for the second time is Tara Robertson, principal of Tara Robertson Consulting, which provides assessment strategy, implementation and speaking and coaching for all of your DEI efforts. So how are you both? I'm just so glad that we're finally able to do this!
Cornell Verdeja-Woodson 02:06
I'm loving it. I'm very happy and excited to be here.
Tara Robertson 02:10
Me too, like, I figure like this is today is the day that this conversation was supposed to happen. So all the people who are here are the right people, we are the right people, and wherever the conversation goes, is the right place.
Cornell 02:22
That's right. That's right.
Enrico 02:24
So I know this conversation has been a long time coming. And it's been a while since we started thinking about this idea of accountability. So I'm just really curious to dive in. One of the things that I've been dying to ask you both, is, well, how often do you encounter clients who you ultimately find out are treating DEI efforts as like "checkbox exercises", so they're going through the motions, they know that other people are doing it, but ultimately, they're not really doing what we would consider to be The Work.
Cornell 03:00
Tara, you want to go first?
Tara 03:01
Okay. I think as—I'm just a one person consulting shop, so I have to be really discerning about who I choose to partner with. I want to make the biggest impact I can in the world, and I want to have a successful business. So I become more discerning about who I partner with, as my business matures. And some of the questions that I'm asking at the very beginning (that I didn't ask at the start) were like, "who on the executive team is championing this?" And "what's your budget?" So those two things are really telling for me. If there's no one on the executive team, I usually direct those people to go back intern—internally in their company and figure out who's going to champion this work at the top table. And if the budget is way out of whack, like if someone has a budget of $3,000, and wants a full assessment and strategy, like, that tells me that they don't know what kind of work needs to happen, or that they view that the work as being like really quick, and that that's not really what the work is for me. So I'm curious, what about you Cornell?
Cornell 04:14
You know, it's exactly the same thing. And I actually really enjoy working with those types of clients, but I see an opportunity to move them from "here" to "there". And so a lot of times I run into clients who, same thing, very small budget, there is an executive there, and you can tell that it's very much like "you just need to do SOMETHING." I've had more people come to me at the end of the year, and say, "Oh, we just need to get a workshop in" and I go "ugh", so I don't do one-off workshops, it needs to be sort of like—we need to have a—have a relationship, right? Because you're not going to learn anything from one time. So in that consulting current conversation, if they're willing and open to kind of be "malleable" to that that's usually where I go, okay, we can work together but if they're like, "Nope, this is where I'm saying" then like, "then I'm not the person for you", right? There's another consulting out there who's willing to do that. It's not me. And I ask very similar questions budget, you know, what are the attitudes of the company, in terms of, you know, are the employees generally like, yeah, we need to do this, but just need some education. Because that can also be exhausting on us as consultants, dealing with people who are just so starkly against it [DEI work], that, you know, not being internal and doing the day-to-day work with them can be hard. So I do, I do tend to take on more of the more difficult ones, because I love that challenge of being able to get them to go from "here" to "there". But I would say most of my clients are on the checkbox-y stage, unfortunately,
Tara 05:38
Ooh, I have two things to add. The people who often like are reaching out who aren't at the executive table, THEY are super passionate, they're often younger. So there's a bit of a coaching opportunity for me there and I want to support their passion, I want to support their hunger for justice in the workplace. So sometimes it's asking them coaching questions to get clear on like, how they can take the next step internally. The other question I ask is, "why now?" Like, what do—you want to do this thing? Like, tell me why, why right now in your organization?
Tara 06:17
And THAT helps me tease out and give it like, kind of a backstory and like, what are the conditions right now in that organization where this is becoming urgent, or it's something that they're gonna dedicate time and money to doing?
Cornell 06:17
Yes!
Cornell 06:30
That is—I totally forgot about that question. That's such a good one. Because they [clients] don't often lead with "something happened", or you know, and usually, because they're embarrassed by it, right? They don't want us to come in and think negatively about them upfront, I go, "uh, I need to know that kind of stuff." And so by asking that question, you're getting that like, "oh, yeah, well, someone said THIS", or "we had this issue" or, and like, "Ah, okay!" and then it also leads you to determine, "you may think you needed this, but you actually need this", right, "given what I'm hearing." And so we're able to really be, you know, good coaches and consultants and provide them what they need and not what they think they want.
Enrico 07:06
So I just like to collect back some of what I've been hearing you both say. So in terms of the "right now" question, that's a really diagnostic question, or it can be. And so it's—it adds a lot of context, I think I hear you both saying, and that's often something that clients are not necessarily forthcoming about, because maybe they're embarrassed, maybe they want to maintain their reputation. But it's absolutely essential for us to understand what we're walking into, if you really want us to help you out. So organizations, if you're out there watching this, please don't get freaked out by the "Why Now" question, maybe maybe come prepared with one?
Enrico 07:45
I'd like to pivot to our audience real quick to try to engage them a little bit. So in your experience, "what would be a clear indicator that an organization's DEI efforts are mostly lip service or checking off the boxes?" So I'll leave that up for a little bit as the responses come in. If we're moving into our main topic for the day, like we know that in recent years, it has been this explosion in demand for DEI consultants, especially after George Floyd. But even with that increased visibility, you know, in the national discourse, or like, even global discourse really, on race and racism. Race is still a really, really uncomfortable topic for so many people. But if we get stuck in that discomfort, how can—how CAN organizations get past that kind of checkbox-y, kind of "going through the motions" thing? Or like, why is it that people get so stuck on race from your view?
Cornell 07:45
Do we have a full two hours, three days? Like—
Cornell 07:45
Yeah, yeah.
Enrico 07:52
I wish! We could do a part two!
Cornell 07:56
So, from me, and this comes up something that I think—we were talking about backstage before we went live is this shame and guilt that I—at least from my experience that I've seen—a lot of people get really emotionally charged around the conversation of race, and particularly white folks who get really wrapped up because I think there is this feeling that we're blaming THEM for everything that is and has happened, as opposed to helping them understand the role that they may play unconsciously, and the perpetuation of racism. And then then there's that conversation around their truth is how they see the world through their own lens. And they're like, "I don't see what you're talking about, I don't understand." And they're not open to the idea of multiple truths existing, that because you see what you see or don't see what you see, doesn't mean that there isn't more happening out there. And because of your identity as a white person, you're not going to see what my experiences as a Black person. But your willingness to be open to multiple truths existing at once could lead you to kind of see those little nuanced differences of how the person, the check person—the cashier person at the grocery store responds to you differently than how they respond to me. Right? But I think they have to be open to that. And I think part of that is shame and guilt, "well, I can't fix it, I can't do anything about it, so if I ignore it, then I can just keep living my life as as I have been." And I think we're not realizing that that doesn't work. So I mean, I'm sure there's much, much more to that. But I think that's been some of the things I've heard from many people. And I've discerned from my conversations with folks.
Tara 10:31
I'm just thinking, like, when George Floyd was murdered, there was this huge like, especially with white people, like interest—and genuine interest and wanting to learn and see a different perspective—and change things because it's like . . . which was really, really exciting. I'm hearing myself use the past tense, because I think that excitement has come and it's waning. And also, as we go into an economic recession, as this global pandemic just doesn't end and keeps grinding on, people are really frickin' tired. And . . . it takes some muscle and it takes some stamina, and it takes some like, [growls], to be in this for the long term and to not only be able to see systemic racism, in education, in the media, in government programs, in how our cities are organized, what it looks like in the workplace, like, it takes a lot of time, and a lot of personal discomfort to really witness and really see those harms. And then there's like, I think, an internal process, like, it's super uncomfortable. And I've coached people who were like, "I didn't ask to be white, like this, so called—" like, "I didn't—there's nothing that I did wrong." And that guilt and shame again. So moving through that, and understanding your internal landscape, and then kind of building that muscle to move through it. And then be mindful about, like how you want to be in the world. And then what you want to do, especially when you're a leader, like it's not easy, like if this stuff were easy, it would have been done, and it's it really isn't. So it's requiring people to build new, new muscles. And it's hard.
Cornell 12:39
And I understood that more profoundly through my own experience as a cis-gendered man, right and learned about my male privilege. It was hard, I was upset when people—when women in my life, were saying, "Hey, your male privilege is really impacting this experience for us." And you know, how you show up in the space. And I was like, "What?! I'm Black and gay, I don't have male—" like, and so coming through that discomfort of having to kind of understand and unpack my cis-gendered male privilege. I was like, "Whoa, this is what that feels like", I had only ever lived through my Blackness and my gayness and my brokenness when I was growing up, right? So I only understood marginalization. So having to come into into understanding of this other part of me was really, really difficult. And it took me some time. So I think I've developed a little bit more empathy for the process. But yet knowing that we have to challenge people to go through it, though.
Enrico 13:34
Yeah, I mean, those are those are wonderful points, like, yeah, the backdrop of so much of what we're doing is a time of extreme uncertainty and stress. And that's cumulative, right? It builds up over time, we also don't end up talking very much about how white people are vulnerable. Right? And so there are lots of white people out there trying to do the work. But guess what, they're still easy targets for people who haven't done their own learning, their own transformation (often people of color), to beat up on white people. Like, they are vulnerable to that. And that does take a toll. It doesn't matter if they are the dominant culture, the dominant group, there is an effect, right? And that's not to let white people off the hook or anything, but just to recognize that if we want to, as you were saying, Cornell moving people from "here" to "there", then we've got to understand where "there" is at either end and figure out those steps. I do want to pivot now to some comments that are coming in. Quinten has got a few things on on their mind. So, "hiring one DEI person and thinking that means they are done". I've seen that a lot.
Tara 14:49
Check
Enrico 14:50
"Focusing only on diverse hiring and thinking that's the whole journey." That's another check. "Having no concept of psychological safety" oh, big one Quinten thank you so much, "especially at the management leader level."
Cornell 14:50
Mhm.
Cornell 15:05
That's right.
Enrico 15:06
And I'm not quite sure how to say this name it might be "Deadra". But thank you for commenting, "Wanting the consultant to write a prescription to heal the cultural infection". I gotta write that down. That is wonderful phrasing.
Tara 15:19
That's poetic and powerful!
Cornell 15:22
I've literally had to put that in my intro meeting with a client, I was like, "just so you know, this isn't fixing everything" because what's coming up so much, where people were like, "Well, you didn't fix anything." Yeah, I didn't create it either! This takes years!
Enrico 15:35
Let's see Roxanne says "absolutely even expressing explicitly—expressing/explicitly indicating preference to focus on "culture" and not willing to discuss "race". Quinten back again, "centering white priorities watering down the concern /question/priorities of BIPOC staff, underrepresentation of minorities in leadership positions, expecting people to leave their lived experiences at the door rather than making room for authenticity and whole person reactions to life." Quinten, I love that last phrase, whole person reactions to life. I'm gonna borrow it with permission.
Tara 16:23
There's so much wisdom in this community.
Cornell 16:25
I know, yes!
Tara 16:26
I love this!
Enrico 16:28
Yeah, that—Roxanne's jumping in too "I've noticed when racism comes up, often it is met with counter arguments." Yeah. And that's exhausting. "Or shifting away from racism, towards issues of classism. Specifically denying race issues to shifting conversations, focus to class issues." So thank you so much for all those responses, everyone that was really, really rich,
Tara 16:52
Are white like queer people saying, "I'm not racist, I'm gay, or I'm a lesbian, or I'm queer." And it's like, mmm.
Cornell 16:58
Both and! [Laughs]
Tara 16:59
Yes and!
Cornell 17:02
Exactly, exactly.
Enrico 17:04
Yeah, it's like some people have this mental construct of like, "okay, this is a human being. And they have this much capacity for -isms, so my -isms are gonna be A, B, and C, therefore, I CAN'T be X, Y, and Z." That is not how that works. It's not like a air filter you can just pop out and replace or something.
Cornell 17:22
Right. That's right.
Enrico 17:25
So often, as DEI consultants, we find ourselves in the role of accountability partners for our clients, you know, to try to get them out of that kind of checkbox-y thing. But that said, accountability is a REALLY hard one. So on the one hand, we're being paid to advise, educate, train, and to some degree to fulfill the WISHES of our clients. But in your view, what can we be doing as consultants to support our clients in being more accountable for the progress that they make on their DEI journeys, or lack thereof?
Cornell 18:00
Tara, you wanna go first?
Tara 18:01
Yeah, like, um, I'm just thinking about the last client that I worked with The Carpentries, which is a global—global, like nonprofit that works to help researchers level-up on coding and data science skills. And the toolkit that we put together at the end, there was like—what I was hearing from a bunch of people in the community, they're like, "we care about this just tell us the things to do", like, "give us the tactical things". And it was like, "yeah, there are some tactical things, but like, for our global community that operates like in communities, spaces and university spaces, and like, sometimes in corporate spaces, like, there is no "one size fits all" checklist. So we divided things up into kind of "mindset", and then some tactical things. So like, kind of self reflection questions that people can ask themselves, like, "how am I doing? And how is my mindset shifting? And how can I like, implement some of these tactical things?" And I think that needs to happen in corporations too, like, "How do we shift our mindset over time around what we consider equity and equity, equitable work", and I'm seeing that from companies looking just at their people function (like their employee experience), to thinking about "how are we designing products equitably? How are we investing and doing our corporate banking equitably? How are we marketing in the world?" like, across the whole company. So like that mindset shift for me is like, how companies are kind of maturing their view and their mindset on DEI. And then I think for the tactical things, if your company has OKRs where you set measurable goals, the best practice is for your DEI goals to be part of the company's measurable business goals. This is a business imperative. It's not a "nice to have" like, thing that people do on the side. So if you're serious about this, ladder that into the existing accountability, like frameworks that you have. "Who on the executive team is only each one of these? What happens if they hit it? What happens if they miss it?" Like, "when we miss product deadlines, or when we miss the mark on product, we do retros and understand why we missed them." And then there's ownership on how we're going to do things differently. So I think we already have really strong metrics and kind of infrastructure on how we move the needle on lots of business things. We just need to expand that to include DEI there. What about what do you think Cornell?
Cornell 20:41
I literally have nothing else to add. [Laughter, overlapping]
Tara 20:45
I don't believe that, you ALWAYS something good to say!
Cornell 20:47
I'm dead serious. Everything—as you were talking, I was like, "yup, I was gonna say that, I was gonna say that!"
Enrico 20:54
You're getting affirmation from the client—from the comments as well from Kristina Smith. And Kristina is also weighing in with "clients often don't get this is the work of the heart. It's not like building a widget", which I think is true, but is not incompatible with what you're saying Tara, it's like, yeah, so even in building widgets, it's it's "heart" work. You know?
Cornell 21:16
That's right. That's right. That's right. The only thing—the only thing I think I would add in my personal experience, I think, is around the—it was around Kristina's comment around "this is heart work." And I think getting leaders to understand like, I feel like everybody comes into the conversation from a different door. Right? And—not unfortunately—but yeah, unfortunately, you know, some people come in and come into the conversation through a "business mindset", right? "How does this impact the business?" And so understanding for me, what their where their head is, is critical to building the accountability that I'm trying to get them to understand. Right? So like, if you're a business-centered person, that I'm trying to help you understand how this impacts the business, whether you do it or you don't, right? And so that's how I begin to build a conversation, which turns into "heart work" for folks, right? But if now I'm in and I'm like, "Oh, wow, I'm seeing how it impacts people." And it turns into, "I'm doing this because it matters", right? And also helps a business. But sometimes that door that people come through isn't always to the heart. It's through the business mindset. And so I think we have to get people where they are, so, talking about that journey of "where are they now" to "where we want to get them to" we've got to OWN where they are. And I think we've been spending a lot of time fighting the business case, which I understand. But the reality of it is, people are THERE. And if I want to build that accountability, and I'm only talking about a little bit about like, sort of even what accountability means, because the research, the literature on accountability doesn't even necessarily reference an actual change or mindset shift it—but however, it does reference a "answerability" to something right. So like, you know, so you may not change your mindset, on "why diverse hiring" or "I need to turn to diverse hiring on—building diverse workforce is important", but you're being held answerable to it. So not doing it means there's a there is a—an action that gets taken whether you lose something, or you're forced to do something, right? So I think it'd be mindful to "what does accountability ACTUALLY mean?" Because it doesn't always look like the person actually changing their hearts and minds, as well.
Enrico 23:28
That is a fascinating point. And I would love to learn so much more about that.
Cornell 23:33
I love studying accountability. It's a part of my research right now, so I'm really enjoying it!
Enrico 23:39
By the way, everybody at Cornell is working his way towards earning a PhD. So let's all wish him the best of luck. It sounds like he's got a great handle on it. So to pivot to our audience quickly, "when you're feeling frustrated or discouraged while trying to support clients and being accountable to their DEI work, how do you deal with it?" So we'll let some some comments come in some others have come in as well. So we've got I think it's Asjah Monroe, "I have a question for the panelists. Has there ever been a time that being personally triggered or offended has nearly jeopardized your ability to work with clients?"
Cornell 24:24
ONE-HUN-DRED-PER-CENT. Now for me, it depends on like—people make mistakes, right? And, and they make well-intentioned mistakes that can also offend and trigger, right? And so for me, it's about understanding like, "was that a mistake? Or are you being outright ignorant?" and I've had clients who are just outright ignorant and are—and you know, are intending to, like, be a barrier in the process. And even then I'm like, "let's have a conversation". And if you're open to the dialogue, and we can continue working together, but if you're going to be stagnating and, you know, "dig your feet into the sand" that I get to choose who I work with. And I can walk away from this conversation and this relationship. But if there's an openness to learning, and there's like, "okay, I can tell you just didn't know the right language, or you didn't understand something". And that's—an—we can teach. If you're open, we can move forward, if you're not that we got to walk away from each other.
Tara 25:23
And this speaks to me as well for doing our own work. Like, whew! I had—I had a client last year, so much of the engagement was really, really great. And they were a dream client in many ways. And one of the leader's communication styles triggered the heck out of me. And then I needed to look at myself to reflect in therapy, like, "Where are my boundaries? How am I setting them? And how is my behavior backing that up?" So that—that, for me, resulted in me being a little more mindful in the morning about how I started my day, and meant taking my work, email off my phone, so that when I was waking up, I wasn't like "AH! 3am email from my client!", like, so getting more grounded, and in my power, and doing my work, to heal some of my triggers, and being patient with myself on those days. And yeah, it was tricky. If I were to go back, like I think over rotated on delivering really good work for that client. And I would have—if I could go back in a time machine, I think I would have been a bit more transparent about the impact that this is having on me and been a lot more compassionate with myself like, this is really tricky work. Like it's not like any other consulting work. It's not like any other change management work. I think the reasons why it can be so deeply rewarding and fulfilling can also be some of the same reasons why it can be like, lead to burnout, lead to, like self-doubt, am I doing a good job? Like, it's, it's hard. So I think being really clear about your "why", being clear about your boundaries, and your behaviors that you're enacting in your own practice is really, really key. And I say this, like, I've got it figured out like, I don't like, it's a work in progress! [Laughs]
Cornell 27:24
I had a global client last year, where I worked with several people who were on the executive team, but they had this one person who you just knew that they didn't really think we needed to be doing—in fact, they articulated that they didn't think we need to be doing this work. And so in my mind I'm like, "Why do you keep showing up?" but they showed up every time just to go "Yeah, but. Yeah, but. Yeah, but," and [unclear] and that upset me so much. But I think understanding sort of what was happening and how—why I was being triggered and why I was upset, you know, allowed me to come back into that conversation in a very different way. And I think by the time we were kind of done well, I don't think he was fully like, "yes, DEI is amazing!" I do think there was some—there were some wins that I'd gotten through—through to him that I think got him a little bit closer to understanding the "why" behind this work.
Enrico 28:17
So yeah, there's a lot in there, of course. And thank you for those responses. Thank you so much for the question. We've got some some more action here in the chat. You two have got everybody talking, it seems. So this, this participant, Deadra I believe is saying "everyone is not coachable". Following that up by, "you have to decide sometimes with a coach, how much of yourself you are willing to give". And Quinten following up again with "Deadra Welcome, I'd add "not everyone is coachable in their current state of mind". And that is emphasized. "Because I think if people put in the work, they can all become coachable."
Cornell 29:00
Right. But you have to be willing. Right? Like you have to come to the table with a willingness, right to learn and be open. Yeah.
Enrico 29:11
Okay, yeah, definitely. And it is work. It is—it is work. It is hard work. It's a grind sometimes. But it's—it's deeply necessary, I think. And the fact that there are so many people coming out of the woodwork from many different fields and backgrounds to engage in this work, I think is a real indicator of how necessary we're all feeling that it is, well not all of us, but many of us I should say.
Tara 29:37
Ooh, can I just jump in one sec? If I were to go back to myself, the coaching question that I would ask this client is "where else in your—where else in your work or life do you hire an expert and not listen to their expertise?
Enrico 29:50
"All the time."
Cornell 29:51
Oh, I've asked that question before!
Tara 29:53
And then, the other question I'd ask is, "what's going on for you?"
Cornell 29:56
Yeah! What feelings?
Tara 29:58
I didn't have my feet grounded, and I was, "Oh, I'm not good enough. There's a deficit here. They want this and that." And it's like, no, no, no. Like, "you've hired me as the expert. Where else? Where else? Are you hiring expert help and disregarding their advice?"
Cornell 30:13
Yeah,
Tara 30:14
"Do you do that with your auditor?"
Cornell 30:17
No, you do not! [Laughing]
Tara 30:18
"Do you do that with your general counsel? So I'm curious what's going on for you here on this topic."
Cornell 30:26
And that can be so hard sometimes when we're dealing with a difficult client in this particular space. Because I think at least for me, I'll speak in "I" statements, I usually jump to the assumption that "oh you're trying to" like, "you don't believe in this work," or you're you know, the all the negative—negative mindset, right. But asking that "feeling" question, I have found in the last five years is so profound to getting through some of the crap, right? What's—"how are you feeling coming into this conversation?" And then you start going, "Well, I'm nervous. I am afraid because in the past, I've been pointed at as the problem" or right, right, and you go, "oh okay, and—
Tara 31:02
I'm getting goosebumps Cornell!
Cornell 31:03
Right? Because now we can start going, "huh? Okay." And so I started leading conversations with that, what—what this is not about, right, and then I start throwing myself under the bus. "I too, have to oftentimes go to my colleagues doing this work and check myself" and then you start seeing the shoulders drop. Right? And they're like, "oh, okay", and a sense safety has been developed in the first meeting, because they're going "Okay, this is, this is gonna be a different experience." But I do tell people, "so I am not—while my intent is not to harm or to make you uncomfortable, I can't say that uncomfortableness is not a part of the journey." Right? And that I will provide a balance of challenge and support here. Right, because it is uncomfortable seeing the world this way. And then all of a sudden, you go, "Whoa, I didn't know that was there."
Enrico 31:51
Yeah, and sometimes people hear "psychological safety" and really expect to be coddled and like shielded or sheltered. But really what we're talking about is psychological safety, like where you're "safe enough".
Cornell 32:05
I talk about brave spaces, right? Because I think "safe spaces" have [unclear] oftentimes been turned into like, "No, you're not going to disagree with me, we're not going to have tough, you know, conflict". No, no, this work is ALL about all that complexity. So brave space is for me, is brave enough to lean into the discomfort that you're feeling and digest it a little bit more to understand that we can have different viewpoints, but respect, right, and basic rights are super critical. But brave spaces are—tend to be a little bit more digestible for people to know what to expect.
Enrico 32:36
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Setting expectations is so so so important. So I know that we're going a little bit over and thank you so much for being able to stay. The last question that's been on my mind is thinking about what we as consultants can do better to get our clients past DEI as a checkbox exercise, but also thinking about, again, accountability. So what can DEI consultants like in general, be doing better to support accountability for the DEI field on the whole?
Cornell 33:12
For the—for the client, or for us, as consultants?
Enrico 33:15
For us, you know, like, so often the client—they don't really know very much about DEI. And so sometimes they don't even know what to look for. And if we're being real for a minute, there are people out there who are selling things that really are not helping us to advance racial equity. They're just out there to make a buck. And they're hurting literally everybody in the process.
Cornell 33:39
Yeah. And this is another hour conversation if you ask me, but I have thoughts, Tara, do you want to do want to go first, you have thoughts?
Tara 33:47
You go. My thoughts are kind of [makes sound].
Cornell 33:49
Yeah, I think as a consultant, I oftentimes also have to kind of check myself too, right, when I develop a new workshop or a new service, or things of that sort and understand sort of, "how is this in service to the ultimate goal?" Which is for me, not—it's not inclusion, it's not equality, it's liberation, actually. Right. So I'm always thinking like, if and take it from like an organizational standpoint, we know that everything has been driven by the mission. My mission is to create liberation for all people. And so when I come up with a with a new—and all people not just my people who look like me, but people who I have nothing in common with, right? And so I think that it's really important for us to always be checking back against that goal. Right? So "here's this new service, here's this new approach, here's this new article, this new research, how is it contributing to the liberation of all people?" And if we're not constantly (every year, if you ask me) at least checking-in with ourselves and ensuring that the way in which we do the work, is always reaching back to that mission because the money can be good! These these companies, you know, for the most part are paying big, big bucks. And so sometimes, sometimes in a consumer-driven society, the money turns you and it makes you do things differently. And the other thing I'll say too, is that the day that I do consulting in a way that serves or pleases my client, and doesn't seek to upset them because I want to keep them, I’m getting out of the business, right? Because I cannot—I won't center you. I'm centering the liberation of all people. And that means sometimes you're going to be upset with me, I'm going to be telling you things that you're not going to want to hear. And that's why you hired me. So when I start doing things that go, "Well, I don't want to piss them off. So I'll use instead of 'white supremacy', I'll use the word 'this'". No. Because that's what we're talking about. We're talking about toxic masculinity. We're talking about white privilege, we're talking about those things. And that's the thing that we want to be here to support you through the conversation. So it's always checking back with how and what I'm offering, and how does it connect to my ultimate goal of liberation for all people?
Enrico 35:48
I love that.
Tara 35:52
I felt that in my heart, like,
Cornell 35:54
I started to cry a little bit, [unclear, laughing] because I felt my eyes water and I was fighting it back for a second!
Tara 36:02
Like, and it should move us right? Like these big things, liberation for all people.
Cornell 36:07
That's right.
Tara 36:08
Like that should move us.
Cornell 36:10
Yeah.
Tara 36:11
For me, like, it's also about being really clear about my "why" and my "why" is like, what we've got right now and the leadership we have right now, we've got a global pandemic, we've got really nice weather in Vancouver, but the creek beds are full of dead salmon, because there's no water.
Enrico 36:29
Yeah.
Tara 36:33
Climate change is no joke. The violence of racial injustice, like we've seen that, can't unsee that. So the future that we know we want and that we all need to have so we can survive and thrive like, we need to radically rethink that. And we need to make that future irresistible. And that's what I'm here for whether I'm consulting on a strategy level, or I'm working one-on-one with a leader. And Cornell something that you said, like having the fierce courage to speak the truth, like, I will take a stand for my client, I will take a stand for that future, that irresistible future that we need, I will take a stand for all of our liberation. And I have to take a firm stand and be fierce on that, and be willing to be fired.
Cornell 37:21
That's right. That's right. And in even in from me saying that, too, I love that you—I talk about that a lot. There's privilege in that right of being able to say, you know, "hey, I'm willing to be fired", or, you know, "in order to stand up for what I believe in". So I know that not all people are able to take that right. And so also being mindful of like where—because most of us who are doing this work are from marginalized identities, most of us, many of us are People of Color too right, and so recognizing what that means. But so, so I always speak from "I" statements, so me, that's my take. And that's what I'm willing to do. And that thing I'll say, too, is I think a lot of times what gets us into this work is often inspired by personal experiences on our personal identities. And so I also like to stop often too to go, "how am I focused on the liberation of my Asian peers? How am I focused on the liberation of my transgender peers, of people with disabilities?" because I'm not doing this work for Black people, and just for queer people. I'm in, this work for ALL of us. And so how am I making sure that what I do is I just centering me, but also centering other folks whose identities I may not hold. And I think that's a critical reflection point for all of us, too.
Enrico 38:33
It certainly is. And thank you so much for for both being able to stay a little bit longer. Any any closing thoughts here anything you'd like to point our audience to, that you're working on, that you're excited about? Or anything else that's coming our way?
Cornell 38:50
The only thing I would say not, it's not to—take care of yourself. We didn't talk about self-care and our own mental health and things of that sort. So for folks who are on this call, who do consulting or work in-house, or whatever it is, how are we also finding time for "self" because if we don't fill our cup, there's no way we can be sustainable in this work. Because we need to take care of ourselves as well.
Tara 39:09
I'll just echo that, like, hydrate. And, like, it's such a generous community. Thank you for tuning in and sharing your thoughts. When you hang up, I would encourage you to ask yourself, "How am I feeling?" And "what's going on in my body?" Take five minutes and answer those questions for yourself and then relook at your plan for today. And if you need to make changes to honor what your lived reality is right now, like be fully empowered to do that.
Cornell 39:46
I love it.
Enrico 39:48
Thank you both so much. Once again, it has been an absolute pleasure. And I gotta say we've rescheduled I don't know how many times but
Cornell 39:56
Like four!
Enrico 39:57
Like four, but this was great and yeah, you know, I would love to do this again with you both. I love the energy. Thank you both so much really, really appreciate it. If you're all out there watching this, then definitely check out what Cornell is up to go to BraveTrainings.com And also check out what Tara's doing on TaraRobertson.ca or you can follow them both on social media. And if you liked this episode, please do give us a like and a share, it would really really help us out. Until next time, this is Enrico E. Manalo with The "DEI is:" Podcast
Enrico 40:34
Enrico here. Thank you so much for tuning in to The "DEI is:" podcast. If you're walking away from this episode, feeling like you've learned something, saw something from another angle or if you just enjoyed it, give us a like, share it with your friends and of course, please subscribe! More people tuning in means that it's more likely that DiVerity will catch the interest of investors, which is crucial for us to take things to the next level in addressing the inequities that dei practitioners face under the current norms, standards and practices of DEI consulting. Building a diverse equitable and inclusive organization is hard but finding DEI expertise and services shouldn't be if you're looking you know where to find us. Till next time, this is Enrico E. Manalo. See you soon!
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